YTSEJAM Digest 4509
Today's Topics:
1) NDTC from a Perpetual Assinin (sp) moron.
by Chris Schulze <schulze2@mindspring.com>
2) Valkyrie, Your Life Force Is Running Out
by Uroborosss@aol.com
3) Music, Bands, Purpose, etc.
by Uroborosss@aol.com
4) Watson, go smoke some more crack and get back to me on that one...
by Eckie <eckie@imap1.asu.edu>
5) Elysian...?
by "Kenn Jensen" <kenn@email.dk>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4508
by "Kenn Jensen" <kenn@email.dk>
7) Did somebody say, "Vibrato?" (God forbid I include DTC)
by Eckie <eckie@imap1.asu.edu>
8) Re: Therion and Vitalij Kuprij...
by Phil Carter <phil@usefulware.com>
9) Perpetual Motion
by "Michael Patrick" <civilwar@my-dejanews.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:50:37 -0500
From: Chris Schulze <schulze2@mindspring.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: NDTC from a Perpetual Assinin (sp) moron.
Message-ID: <3678A9BD.F367128A@mindspring.com>
Adam among other things said the following about me...
> Subject: LaBrie/Tate - again for the moron...
> Christian spewed in his Perpetual Assininity(tm)...
Ok, this is what bothers me. People can bash the things I say as much as
they want, but when people start going personal like that, it's when I
think I should just give up on the jam.
Ok, I'll be the first to admit I didn't calculate the number of dates
correctly for the DT and QR tours. Still, I think my point is valid. So
instead of the HITNF tour, take the Empire tour as the example - that
one really was longer than DT's.
Which still wasn't the point I was trying to make.
The point actually was: on his WORSE night on stage, you'll never hear
that Geoff Tate:
a) sung out of tune
b) cussed out the crowd (not included in my original post)
c) didn't pronunciate the words to the songs correctly (small mistakes
notwithstanding)
d) had his voice giving up on him after the 3rd song.
e) used vocal techniques that sound weird (though some may include his
vibrato in this category hehehe).
Adam, to make HIMSELF feel all good and almighty, just "forgot" to quote
that part abover that I also mentioned in my original post. Funny since
it was the most important part of the post.
The point is, DT does NOT have the most extensive touring schedule ever
known to mankind, so there is really no excuse for any of the 5 points I
mentioned if they ever happened. Of course that is just my humble
opinion.
So you can try and make yourself feel good all you want Adam, and if you
choose to personally attack me to make yourself feel superior, hey, be
my guest.
To everybody else, my apologies for sending this to the list, but once I
was attacked publically I felt I had the right to answer.
Christian.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:34:07 EST
From: Uroborosss@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Valkyrie, Your Life Force Is Running Out
Message-ID: <ad427e0a.3678b3ef@aol.com>
> From: Dave Ware <dware@walker.com>
> Subject: Re: Nightwish mp3 (the whole song)
>
> The reason I ask (and please bear in mind that this is IMHO) is that it
sounded
> like the year was 1986 (85?) again, I was young and spotty (er...spottier)
and
> Europe was at number 1 with The Final Countdown...
Let us not forget that the main keyboard line from that song was later re-used
in the form of an organ for the soundtrack of the video game "Gauntlet II."
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:08:40 EST
From: Uroborosss@aol.com
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Music, Bands, Purpose, etc.
Message-ID: <aa6a16f6.3678ca18@aol.com>
It's part of my programming to be long-winded...
> From: Isaac Sabetai <isabetai@bu.edu>
> Subject: Korn and an accompanying rant
>
> That's all that matters. If a band rocks, they're good.
The first time I heard Korn was while waiting in line at the UW cafeteria, and
I noticed that their drummer as a bit tighter than most of what was going on
at the time (1995, Nirvana was still dominant over all of Seattle). But the
second time I heard them was in Brandon Ghioto's car with Trey Allen and Paul
Cashman (on the way to the '96 DT Xmas shows), and I got to hear the whole
album. The first comment I made after the first two songs was "Sounds like the
revenge of the double-kick" because the drummer was using it for rolls and
fills instead of 16ths, which were usually relegated to non-radio metal bands.
(Since Korn was pseudo-popular at the time and pseudo-radio-friendly, I
considered it a revenge because someone had found a way to get double-kick
back on the radio.) With Helmet in mind, I wondered if the combined efforts of
both bands would blow the doors open for that sort of drumming getting on the
radio, because that thundering 16ths stuff was nowhere to be found. (No I am
not a drummer. Yes I like them a lot.) Anyway, I also noticed the bass player
was digging deeper than Dig Dug, and when Korn wanted to they could get my
head nodding rather fiercely.
> They don't have to shred.
They.... They don't?? You mean there's, like, other stuff out there?? I've
heard of that "non-guitar-solo" music, but I never thought it actually
existed...
> I've become very tired of listening for time changes and solos.
Then I must recommend "Second Coming" or "Stone Temple Pilots" or "The
Hunger." If you've heard STP and hate them, know presently that they aren't
much like the other two bands I mentioned. And best of all, they don't have
lead guitar players who beat John Petrucci in the Guitar Player "Best New
Guitarist" category like that DeLeo guy from STP, so you don't have to hate
them! ;)
> Whatever happened to listening to music because it good, instead of
> listening for complexity?
WHAT?!? Who listens to that crap? If anything in music happens slower than the
rhythmic thrumming of a lawnmower engine, it's good for nothing!! :)
> Maybe that's why I've been listening to the Beastie Boys (Listen all y'all
it's
> a SABOTAGE), Alice in Chains, Pink Floyd and Pantera lately.
Gotta love Pantera, not a drop of complexity in their sonic complexion.
> That kinda brings me to my next point-- the problem with most prog and
> shred bands is that they'll be remembered for individual things like a
> great guitarist or drummer, not their songs, which is disturbing.
"I find your lack of a great guitarist... disturbing." --Darth Vader, Shreddi
Master
I agree that most prog/shred bands is that single entities will be remembered
rather than songs. Though I hear Rush has some great songs that some folks
couldn't forget if they tried.
> Whenever I've heard someone recommend DT to someone else musicianship
> always comes first, before their great songs.
Ay, everyone picks their favorite member and blares about them. For me it's
always, "You gotta hear these guys! Their GUITARIST kicks ass!" instead of
"You gotta hear these guys! Their songs are SO CATCHY!!"
> The problem with musicianship is that it stresses the individual, which
> almost always defeats the purpose of a band.
Define the purpose of a band. Sometimes bands are formed just for plain old
FUN, and sometimes it's fun to play all fast and technical. If you feel the
purpose of a band is to reach an audience and please them, and cannot be about
enjoying oneself, then yes I can see why you'd have a problem with much of the
progmetal scene. It's entirely possible that Chris Impellitteri really likes
what he does, knowing full well that if he'd write different songs with his
band he just might get an album on the Billboard charts. One of the reasons
I'm not in a band is because I love the way I play the electric hell-shredder
guitar much more than I would love playing compromising rock music that would
satisfy a bar full of people. My aunt would like me to play classical
acoustic, which is never going to happen even though I know that such a
compromise would gain me an audience. Do I want an audience? Do all bands want
large arenas full of people? Do bands ever form in garages or basements just
because? I stress my individuality as much as possible, because my enjoyment
of life isn't based on how much other people enjoy me.
Or did you mean that high levels of musicianship can create a lot of stress
within a listener? :)
> And I feel many bands don't innovate because they focus on what a certain
> individual can do, not what the band as a whole can create.
This is especially true of bands driven by the guitarist. Even to guitar
players this type of band can sometimes be unbearable or "shit-eating." It
took me many months to teach myself how to hear only the guitar so I didn't
have to hear that annoying group of other musicians interrupting all the
solos. ;)
> Music is about creating songs, not playing something no else can.
First of all, I don't see much opposition between the two halves of your
statement. How are creating songs and playing with impossible innovation
opposites? Can both be done at the same time? Have you ever asked DT if they
are purposely putting together compositions so no one else can play them? What
you said is like saying "Morality is about doing the right thing, not making
oneself as dry as possible!" Don't force a set of opposites until you're sure
all musicians feel that those two concepts are strictly opposed and cannot
coexist.
> Music is about creating songs, not playing something no else can.
Second of all, SAYS WHO? I disagree that music is about any one single thing.
I also disagree that it's not ok for someone to want to play something no one
else can. Innovators who raise the bar a notch and create hordes of envious
onlookers will always be more welcome in my house than the people who are
content with the way things are and content to be a part of the way things
are. The reason I create such a gap between the two poles of contentment and
innovation is because I think innovators are never content, AND because you
imply that the two cannot be merged.
The violin compositions of Niccolo Paganini aren't among the greatest pieces
of Romantic-era music. As far as violin concertos go, I for one think
Paganini's stink next to Tchaikovsky's or Beethoven's. But Paganini is
remembered for his wicked technique. He set out to do things no one else did,
and succeeded in being revered for his time and remembered for all time. Yes,
Mozart was a better writer than Paganini, but Paganini was a better violinist
than ANYONE, the point being that both pinnacles, writing AND playing, can
lead a composer to fame. Saying that music is "about" one and not the other
makes no sense. (By the way, Paganini is considered to be one of the biggest
catalysts the evolution of music has ever seen, despite not being able to
write with the grandeur of Mozart or Beethoven.)
> Musicianship should spawn new ideas, but in this genre it rarely does.
Please re-read what you just wrote. Perhaps the genre doesn't spawn many new
ideas BECAUSE it's a genre. It depends on how much change you want - wild
extensions into country or jazz, or just fewer blistering guitar solos and
less complexity? Do you want these new ideas within the genre itself, or do
you want the genre to split up and create several new musical paths? To demand
that a genre "spawn new ideas" is like saying the creation of a new genre is
impossible - why wait for a genre to change within itself, when there are so
many things that are similar to a particular genre but different enough that
they can be called something else? Some folks are still waiting for heavy
metal to shift around like some shrouded embryo and re-surface in the near
future with an electronic edge. Other folks just call the new electronic metal
"synth-metal."
I'll be damned if I ever say GRUNGE was "a new idea spawned from heavy metal."
Within a genre things pretty much stay a certain way. "Film noir" movies have
looked dark and sinister since the term "film noir" was first used to describe
them. If someone turns on the lights and does a movie about happy people, it
won't fit the genre of "film noir." I guess I'm not clear what you mean by
saying the genre of progmetal rarely spawns new ideas, while being aware that
it IS a genre after all.
> Maybe someday prog bands will get tired of playing fleeting
> guitar/keyboard runs, double bass drums and high-pitched vocals.
Maybe someday rappers will get tired of speaking in rhyme over syncopated
beats. If they did that, they wouldn't be rapping, they'd be doing something
else. Maybe someday country musicians will throw away those annoying fiddles
and slide guitars and stop singing about loneliness and farms. But then they
might not be country anymore. A progressive band is called "progressive"
because there's a lingering definition associated with the word that applies
to the band. If DT stopped altogether with the guitar/keyboard runs, double
kick and high vocals, they might not be referred to as a progmetal band.
They'd still be DT, but the associations might be more like "rock band" or
"80s throwback" or "cheesy synth-driven band." ;)
> It's been done, and my money says that DT, Fates and Queensryche will be
> better than their imitators.
No argument there, man. Which is probably the best thing about this post. :)
Bafu Vai
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:35:29 -0700
From: Eckie <eckie@imap1.asu.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Watson, go smoke some more crack and get back to me on that one...
Message-ID: <3678D061.692904AD@imap1.asu.edu>
Uroborosssippi@aol.com used the force:
> This is a LONG POST. If you aren't a guitar player, DELETE IT IMMEDIATELY.
And this is a long ass reply, if YOU wanna see some major embarrassing
revelations coming towards Bafu, DON'T delete! }:)
> > I do not accept that people who are not trained will
> > develop the same ear abilities as those who go through a structured
> > program.
> I agree. Look at this way: most of the people with perfect pitch DEVELOPED perfect pitch.
Then we have the freaks of nature like my brother (yeah hehehe, we're
all freaky beings here in the House of Eck) who has been gifted with
this incredibly perfect pitch recognition. He's been pushed by my
parents through the years to sing in barbershop quartets and school
choirs and had plenty of time to develop it i guess. I'm just puttin'
it back out on the table that it is possible to attain perfect pitch
without a structured program; it can be one of those things you catch
naturally with no real difficulty and hone through constant
playing/singing/whatever.
And even more to this stunning tale...he's a massive Mariah Carey
fan....
> But when I hear Satriani on "Surfing With The Alien" doing harmonic
> rocketships blasting off into space, I can tell you his strings are further
> away from the frets than my strings are. I'd never be able to play something
> like "Ice 9" the way my action is set up.
Actually I read some of the interviews from Guitar World way back when
(Yeah...Joe and his Electric jacket on the cover) and Satch was
discussing his own personal tastes and bra sizes and (this stuff can
also be researched at http://www.cybersatch.com/ ) Joe axually keeps his
action, for the most part, really low.
> > How do you "hear the action" or are you just basing that on what he played?
> Excellent question.
Heheheh, here he goes....
> I'm basing it completely on what he played. Keep in mind that the questions I
> asked Eckie went in a particular order. They weren't random, one thing did
> lead to another, and I wouldn't have ended up with the conclusions I did if
> Eckie had answered my questions differently. Chronological steps are
> *extremely* important when deciphering how something is being played.
Whoa heheheh, when was this? Back on iParty a few months ago?
I guess those Shreddi mind tricks of suggested memories really must be
workin'....now if I could just tap into Vai's shreddi powers and make
HIM think I chopped his head off in a dusty bar in Orleans long ago....
> So back to Eckie. What he played was total shred. There were no huge yanks of
> the whammy bar or anything else that required high action. What Eckie played
> was really fast, involving not only a fast left hand but really fast PICKING.
> I heard the clicking of the pick and asked him if he was using something
> super-heavy. Sounded like he was chopping wood.
Aluminum wound picks and rubbertree strings baby.
> Eckie admitted that his pick
> was big and heavy and not something you'd want to try chewing on.
Heheheh, you could say that again.
> Eckie admitted that his pick
> was big and heavy and not something you'd want to try chewing on.
Heheheh, you could say that again....
> Before the question of high or low action, I thought, "Okay, he's got a super-
> heavy pick and he's playing really fast. What kind of strings might he be
> using? Well let's take one extreme and work from there. Who uses a super-heavy
> pick with .008-gauge strings?" This is an unlikely combination because heavy
> picks can slice weak strings, another piece of info I had gleaned from
> personal experience. (Aluminum picks just don't appreciate the delicate nature
> of .008s)
Plus what the hell kind of pussy assed player uses gauges less than
009?! BWAHAHAHA!
Please. Everytime there's a big ass prog metal concert in Phoenix, all
us guitar players get together before the show to catch up on each
other's lives/playing/beer guzzling records. And you know who always
gets left out of the conversation? That's right. The 8 gauge players.
"Heheheheh, so Eckie, how's 'em Fingers of Steel videos workin' out for
ya?"
"Quite bitchin', G. I must say tho, that nigga over there in the pink
shirt...what's his problem? He doesn't respond to me when I address him
in the same manner I do with you niggas. And is that a puddle of pee
he's standing in?"
"Oh yeah. That's Billy. He's an 8 gauge string player."
(whole group nods and grunts "AAaaaah..." before going back into their
conversation)
> It's even MORE unlikely a combination when someone picks as fast as
> Eckie was picking. The strings had to be something heavy enough to withstand
> the super-heavy pick flying back and forth at the speed of light. Aside from
> the string-resiliency necessary to be doing what Eckie was doing, the crunchy
> attack was there, and sonically it wouldn't have been as aggressive-sounding
> if the strings were .008s.
I floss with .008 gauge guitar string (players).
[long explanation of Bafu's deduction of my pick/string mass ratio]
> Put all this together, and you might understand why I said, "Eckie, no way
> could you be using .009s or .008s. I think you're using .010s, and if not
> 010s exactly then something heavier." Eckie said I was correct, that he was
> using .010s. I based that question not just on what I heard, but what I knew.
WHOA HO HO HOOOOO...hold up Tex...
I've been using 9 gauge strings since the day I picked up my guitar,
I've only used a 10 gauge on my Ibanez once in my life and that was way
back in my dorm days (yep, pre-computer days of 16 hour long practice
sessions) when I'd annoy the neighbors by playing along to my Metallica
CD's (very very badly and obnoxiously i might add heheh) Recently
though I've grown a disdain (hehehe, cool word) for the lack of tone in
a 9 gauge string and am considering playing around with 10's and mutant
string packs to see what i'll get comfy with.
Try doing a dive bomb or a really sweet pinched harmonic on a used 9
gauge and it won't be nearly as easy/clean as a heavier gauge :P
> One thing led to another. Then came the question of action
> Based on Eckie's speed, I asked myself "would someone be able to left-hand
> finger a bunch of notes that quickly with really high action?" My answer was
> no, that low-action made shredding easier. Based on personal experience I can
> tell you that high-action strings breathe new life into a whammy bar but
> seriously increase the difficulty of shredding. So low action means easier
> shredding. Combine that with the total lack of whammy bar usage, and a theory
> arises. Combine that theory with the knowledge that this guy's using heavy
> strings and a heavy pick, and a QUESTION arises, one that if asked in a
> particular way will yield the exact answer I'm looking for. It all just made
> sense that Eckie's string-action would be extremely low. So I asked Eckie if
> his action was really low and he said yes.
Yeah, relatively it's pretty low. Not as low as I USED to have it
heheheh...(I didn't know what "fret buzz" meant for at least a good 2
months before i raised the bridge BWAHAHAHA)
Anyhoo. If I did tell you back on iParty that I was using 10's...which
i clearly do NOT remember telling anybody. I'm sorry for answering the
right questions with the wrong answers. :) But if you can guess which
BRAND of string I'm using...
..you're psycho.
Or you're Eric Johnson. 8^P First off, it was over iParty...my Crate
can get better frequency resonance out of it and AT&T's Paper Cup and
String 1 cent a minute deal gets better frequency resonance out of THAT.
I can understand yer logic though. I've been trying to decipher some
INSANE Vai and Romeo licks (Timo Tolkki's stuff is a helluva lot easier
to pick out) and can tell enough of a difference (most of the time) in
(correct me if I'm using an improper term here) "note tone" where the
legato ends and the pick attack begins.
I haven't researched much anything on Romeo's favorite strings, cheesy
snacks, or dimensions, but I'd think to be what he's doin' he'd have to
have some detuned strings slappin' relatively close to the fretboard.
Yeah yeah, yall were expecting this reply a long time ago. I haven't
been keepin' up with my jams.
I know I know...I'm expecting Kevin Moore's mutated testicle in my
stocking this year.
~Eckie raises his action REALLY REALLY REALLY high and slaps 11 gauge
strings on his Ibanez in hopes of forming that wickedy wack Marty
Friedman underhand pick attack
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:55:44 +0100
From: "Kenn Jensen" <kenn@email.dk>
To: <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Elysian...?
Message-ID: <000201be29b2$50bf89c0$8409f2d4@bcc10174>
James LaBire's solo-project (well it wasn't surprising was is...?) is
according to Rock Hard (Germany) called: Elysian - can anyone confirm this
and does anybody have some info...?
Speaking of projects how about this one: Sean Reinert (drums), Sean Malone
(bass) (both ex-Cynic/Death), Ron Jarzombek (guitars) (Watchtower), + Trey
Gunn & Glenn Shellwar (King Crimson)...? The project will be entitled
Gordian Knot....
Kenn
Homepage: http://users.cybercity.dk/~bcc10174
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:59:51 +0100
From: "Kenn Jensen" <kenn@email.dk>
To: <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4508
Message-ID: <006801be29b4$d34c5600$8409f2d4@bcc10174>
Joe DeAngelo wrote in YTSEJAM 4805:
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:36:48 -0500
>Subject: Pain of Salvation
>> Prog Metal Disc:
>> *1.Shadow Gallery- "Tyranny"
>> 2. Pain of Salvation- "One Hour by the Concrete Lake"
>> 3. Symphony X- "Twilight in Olympus"
>> Honorable Mention: Athena- "A New Religion?", Savatage-" The Wake of the
>> Magellen," Superior- "Younique"
>
>Could somebody provide us (me) with some info about Pain of Salvation.
>I know NOTHING about them.
>What are they like? Do they have a webpage?
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>- Joe D. aka Magellan
> jdeangelo@home.com ICQ # 1872723
I need information too...I have just seen that InsideOut is going to release
their first (?) "One Hour By The Concrete Lake" album in Europe on the 25th
of January '99 - any webpages....
Kenn
Homepage: http://users.cybercity.dk/~bcc10174
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:13:52 -0700
From: Eckie <eckie@imap1.asu.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Did somebody say, "Vibrato?" (God forbid I include DTC)
Message-ID: <3678F580.83CE4DC7@imap1.asu.edu>
Chris Schulze suggested:
> The point actually was: on his WORSE night on stage, you'll never hear
> that Geoff Tate:
> e) used vocal techniques that sound weird (though some may include his
> vibrato in this category hehehe).
I bet he uses HIS whammy bar...PTACEK!
>;^)
~Eckie hits and runs
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:57:26 -0500
From: Phil Carter <phil@usefulware.com>
To: The Divine Wings of Ytse <ytsejam@axnet.net>
Subject: Re: Therion and Vitalij Kuprij...
Message-ID: <4.1.19981217084008.00943480@pop.usefulware.com>
Greetings ye 'jamanoids...
Jim remarked:
>Two bands whose names I don't know how to pronounce.
Only one of them's a band, actually. Vitalij Kuprij is the keyboardist (and
principal songwriter) for Artension. "High Definition" and "Extreme
Measures" are his solo discs.
>But I wanna get a disc from each, so give me some suggestions.
>]From Therion: Vovin or Theli? Which is better?
This is like asking which Star Wars film is the best. It will produce
endless debates amongst fans. :) "Theli" is better musically, with truly
epic songs and a well-arranged flow to the music, but "Vovin" has better
production and has a better sounding orchestrations and choirs. Some points
also have to be taken off for "Vovin" 's guest appearance by Ralf Scheepers
on lead vocals for one song; the vocals are absolutely horrid.
>And from Kuprij, High Definition or Extreme Measures?
"High Definition" is worth getting. The music is well written and Kuprij is
undeniably talented, but you'll find yourself wishing he'd let up on the
speed just once in a while. Greg Howe matches him run-for-run on guitars. I
don't have "Extreme Measures" yet but it's bound to be even more of an
unabashed shredfest than HD is, since it features shredmaster George Bellas
on guitar.
Bafu remarked:
>This can only mean Michael Romeo does a wider variety of compositions and has
>a technique even further into the realm of the virtuosity than John Petrucci.
>I guess that confirms that I must own a Symphony X album very soon.
Correction: it means you should own a Symphony X album already. Like
yesterday. Like two weeks ago. Comparing Petrucci and Romeo is like apples
and oranges, really; they have different tones, soloing styles, pick
attacks, and songwriting styles. But they have two things in common:
they're both very very good and very very fluid. They make the impossible
seem effortless.
Symphony X. Get their stuff. Get it now. DO YOU HEAR ME MISTER! NOW NOW NOW!!!!
ta,
Phil
==================================================
Phil Carter -- Usefulware Tech Support -- phil@usefulware.com
"Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life."
-- Berthold Auerbach
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:13:28 -0700
From: "Michael Patrick" <civilwar@my-dejanews.com>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Perpetual Motion
Message-ID: <PKBNMFGEBEDLIAAA@my-dejanews.com>
Just thought I'd add to the fun:
I surf through Perpetual Motion all the time. Having
said that, I'm only interested in about 1/100 of the
posts there. Yes, there's prog discussion, and, yes,
there's prog-metal discussion, but there's also speed
metal neo-classical banshee-vocals doom and death
you-name-it discussion as well. I think all of that
is clearly reflected in the poll results. It's a big
wide world out there, and it's full of a whole lot more
than just DT fans.
Edwin Drood
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 4509
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