YTSEJAM Digest 3449
Today's Topics:
1) Re: In Defense of Prism Records
by Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3446
by Graham Boyle <icarus@sydney.net>
3) BAHR WARS (by Eckie and Vinnie)
by "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
4) Of Demos and Desmond
by WhoFooldU <WhoFooldU@aol.com>
5) ATTENTION: BAHR AND PTACEK
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
6) Fight fair...
by "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net>
7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3447
by Dave <buster@ee.net>
8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3442
by "Justin" <justin@intelliworks.net>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3444
by "Justin" <justin@intelliworks.net>
10) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3448
by someone@prognosis.com
11) DT Boots
by Dave <buster@ee.net>
12) Ytsetabs
by Eckie <eckie@asu.edu>
13) KM/DS
by "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
14) When Dream and James Unite boot
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
15) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3447
by Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: In Defense of Prism Records
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980112213854.13168A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Paul Gregory Humm wrote:
>
>Chris Ptacek wrote (regarding Mike Bahr's CD business):
[Chris's anti-boot form letter snipped]
[reasonable response snipped]
>And the bottom line is, of course, no one is forcing you to buy his
>CDs.
>
>Just my two cents.
>
Forget it. It doesn't do any good with Chris. He's been bashing booters
forever. It's the same story from his side too, if it makes you feel any
better. It won't change. Chris won't. Mike won't. I won't. nobody
will. It's all propaganda and mud-slinging.
</cynic>
(good band, that Cynic)
Anyways, I just thought I'd add some *more* useless ramblings to this
already superfluous thread. Morals don't concern me. ^_^
>Paul
>
>
>
>-----------
>Paul Humm
>humm@levy.com
>
--Matt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:06:45 +1000
From: Graham Boyle <icarus@sydney.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3446
Message-ID: <34BB0475.23B12157@sydney.net>
Todd O. Klindt wrote:
>
> Graham,
> I don't think Mayadome are DT clones, I think they fall into the same
> boat as Lemur Voice, Rush, and FW. They are a band that has qualities
> similar to DT's and might be liked by someone who likes DT. If you
> dismiss Mayadome just because they sound like DT did during I&W I think
> you're being a bit close minded. After I make a couple of MP3s give
> them a shot. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Uh I never said they were :)
Like I said if I wanna listen to DT I will listen to them, clones and I
mean
wannabee clones don't interest me. Sure some DT influenced bands are
okay but some just try too hard.
graham
BTW the dude who deosen't like Superior, you are missing out
on a great band mate, give em another try :
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:28:55 -0700
From: "Vincent G. LuPone" <vgl@syspac.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com, durnik@goodnet.com, eckie@asu.edu
Subject: BAHR WARS (by Eckie and Vinnie)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980112232853.006ae23c@postoffice.syspac.com>
In a galaxy far far away,
There is a rebellion.......
A young jedi bootlegger returns
from the Degobah system
To face the enemy, Emporer Ptacek.
After intensive training in Mario Kart 64
The rebellion has a new hope.....
Let's have a look at the facts:
-------------------------------
1) Mike is selling his bootlegs below standard market value for
bootlegs. Standart market prices from most bootleg distributors are
$25 for one CD, and usually between $40-$50 for 2 CD sets. Mike is
selling his single CDs for $20, I believe, and his 2 CD sets are
selling for $34 now.
2) As far as I know, mike IS giving a portion of the sales to Dream Theater.
3) Dream Theater, themselves, are okay with the manufacturing
and sales of these bootlegs, as they have reached an agreement
with Mike about the production. He's limited to one new Dream
Theater CD per year from now on. If the band's okay with Mike's
operations, why the heck aren't you?! That just doesn't make sense.
I could go on, but I won't. I'm a Bahr supporter for obvious reasons.
His bootlegs are very high quality, and his service is top notch. Now that
he's got some new toys he's gonna really be rockin'. I will continue to
purchase Mike's CDs and videos simply because they kick ass. Thank you.
Vincent LuPone
& Chris Eckhardt (Eckie)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:52:45 EST
From: WhoFooldU <WhoFooldU@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Of Demos and Desmond
Message-ID: <3c06871a.34bb0f3f@aol.com>
If you could combine the demo version of You Or Me with the released version
of YNM you'd probably have a winner of a track. Keep the YNM chorus which
strengths the whole song with the production of the orginal demo IMHO.
I think the better question would be why include YNM on FII versus "The Way it
Used to Be".
James smokes...Big deal. get over it. The same thread of an argument lasted
forever on the King's X mailing list as well over Doug Pinnick. Life does go
on.
encourage bootlegging of CD's as long as the major labels are not releasing
enough of our favorite artists. Bootlegs provide an environment of music that
Major labels don't want to even touch or can not afford to. You think a major
label will release something on the scale of 500 to 1000copies of a CD.
WRONG.... The labels are driven by greed. They want to make money too.
Bootlegs provide more insight in to bands than the commercial releases do.
For example, on the Wake UP! or Mind Control bootlegs do you think a major
label would have let James's comment to the fan in the audience about giving
him a year to learn the language before he tries to talk to him. Those
moments rarely get put out to the public.
That's enough for now...
Just a few thoughts
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:10:18 -0800
From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: ATTENTION: BAHR AND PTACEK
Message-ID: <199801130710.XAA03077@gms.gmsnet.com>
ABOUt THIS WHOLE THING:
TAKE IT TO E-MAIL, PLEASE!!
-The Doc
-- #$%*#$*@ E-MAIL: drkhoe@gmsnet.com #$%#$#$% _+_+_+_+ Unix, Internet, Intranet Engineering _+_+_+_+ [][][][] Dr. Mosh's Progressive Feast [][][][] #$@#$#@# http://progmetal.gmsnet.com @#$@##@$------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:12:18 -0600 From: "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Fight fair... Message-ID: <34BB13D2.42D4@auburn.net>
Steve Godbout wrote... > If you must flame him, Chris, do it by private E-Mail > man. And if this does not satisfy you the only other solution is a fist > fight because all has already been said.
That's right. Just don't bring a knife, Chris - Bahr'll see that coming a mile away.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:18:26 -0500 From: Dave <buster@ee.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: Devs0432@aol.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3447 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980113021826.00689fb4@ee.net>
Upstate New York Jammers!
I have a friend in Saratoga Springs who has a radio show and he plays a TON of Dream Theater, as well a lot of other progressive. He will take requests for anything you want to hear as long as it rocks. I'm putting a web site together for him this week:
Which will have all the program info by the end of the week.
Again, he'll play ANY progressive you call in for! His show is Monday and Wednesday nights 8-10 PM 91.1 FM WSPN
The Afterdark Show With "80 Proof" (playing great rock from 80's and 90's)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:17:17 -0500 From: "Justin" <justin@intelliworks.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3442 Message-ID: <01bd1ff3$475f8c00$246a04d1@Justin>
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Justin wrote: > >> 1) PMU > > Definitely should be in a persuasion tape. > >> 2) Metropolis > > Maybe Metropolis is too much for a person that isn't exposed to >progressive music yet, right? > I agree, but I do think it should be on there, maybe towards the end of the tape though.. :)
>> 3) WFS > > I really think that WFS should be followed by LtL (and while LtL >is long, it is not as "show-off" as Metropolis, because it has no "sick" >instrumental section) and girls think it is nice. :-) > I'll give ya that one...
>> 4) Surrounded > > Ok. > >> 5) Lifting Shadows > > Maybe the acoustic version???
Haven't heard the acoustic version...
> >> 6) Pervuian Skies > > Ok. > >> 7) YNM > > Ugh! YNM?? Are you sure?
Although a lot of us DT fans may not like that song, I think there are a lot of other people out there that would.. That song does get air play more than others... At least where I'm from..
> >> 8) Erotomania > > I think that Erotomania suffers from the same problem that >Metropolis suffers, don't you agree? I also think that when a person is >not yet familiar with progressive bands, they are usually not used to >instrumental tracks (you know, people that "need" some voice in their >songs).
Erotomania at the end would be a good idea because it shows the raw talent of almost everyone in the band... Maybe this could be replaced with Lines in the Sand...
> > []s, Roger... >
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:27:31 -0500 From: "Justin" <justin@intelliworks.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3444 Message-ID: <01bd1ff4$b58c6440$246a04d1@Justin>
> if you are looking to order to tab, I was able to pick it up at my location >Sam Ash music store. if you don't have one in the immediate area, they have >a web site (don't know the address off-hand) give them a call they, can >usually have it to you in a couple of days. > > you might also want to look up the Under a Cyber Moon web site. they have >a pretty good selection of tab, and best of all it's free. > > Also if anyone has any bootlegs that they would love to part with, I'm open >to any reasonable price range. even if it is a copy (as long as it isn't >unhearable) > > Lary > Uhhggg, does anyone else here agree with me when I say that whoever does the tab work for the DT songs on the Under a Cyber Moon web site sucks???????? Don't get me wrong here, I appreciate the fact that these guys are trying to help other guitarists out but come on, if they can't do it then they have no business trying to tab it out! I guess what I'm trying to say, if you want tab, "real tab", then you should just buy the tab books because you know that they'll be correct..
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:05:35 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3448 Message-ID: <199801130758.XAA19176@odin.ax.com>
> From: "Paul Gregory Humm" <humm@levy.com> > Subject: In Defense of Prism Records
> I think that it is only fair that Mike get some compensation for the > time that he spends on his CD projects.
You all know the arguments for both sides. This isn't called compensation. That just furthers the myth that this is some kind of donated service. This is a bootleg cd company, and the money he's making is money that belongs to the bands. Tapes, cds, dats, and videos can all circulate just as easily for free as with a little Prism logo on it.
> Define "killing."
An example might be... $2,000 in one day, selling something that takes minimal effort to create, and that you have no right to sell in the first place.
> a) The band knows full well of his business's existence. > b) Mike Bahr respects the band's wishes and does not release > anything the band does not want released.
a). While Portnoy seems cool with this stuff, from what I'm told, members of the band are not cool with the bootleg operation. b). Portnoy is the only reason Bahr hasn't been busted yet. Whether I've been lied to or not, I've heard from people like Wacky and Bafu about entirely different sides of these stories. It's not necessarily a respect out of love for the band, but more out of fear of repercussion.
> Up here in the cold north, double bootlegs of DT go for nothing less > than about 80$ in canadian funds (That's about 53 US$).
When I was your age we had to walk uphill through the snow everyday... Why is it that this keeps coming up? I don't endorse over-priced bootlegs or regular priced bootlegs. My point is that people should not milk a band for their own profit. If Mike kept up his $400 a day, 4 days a week, I'd bet he'd be making more money than the band themselves. I don't believe for a millisecond that Mike's job requires 40-60 hours a week. But I don't care about that. If it were his own honest work, and he only labored 5 minutes a day, I'd pat him on the back for making $10K a day.
> wait. Another great difference is that Mike's CDs are actually approved > (tolerated) by DT's management.
Those terms are not even remotely synonymous.
> Mike has frequently had to pull some > material off of his releases because he was asked to do so by them. So > to me, this seems like some sort of cooperation.
If the band (not just Portnoy) said that they don't mind people making a living off their music through bootlegs, then I'd be off Mike's case instantly. That will never happen.
>The material we get > from Mike is stuff we will invariably NEVER get to hear elsewhere
That must be because Bahr is at every show taping them himself, and without those efforts, the shows would be lost to memory... Bahr gets the boots, and you could too. It's not that hard.
> advertising on the jam? Well the are a lot of people on the jam > interested in Bahr's stuff.
I've had, at the very least, as many people tell me that they've had it with Bahr's productions as I've ever seen on the jam. So as I warned twice before, you're going to get to deal with this when this kind of issue gets brought up on the jam.
Enjoy Coke
"Apathy is the "suckbird" on cynicism's bloated carcass." - Dennis Miller
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:02:50 -0500 From: Dave <buster@ee.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: DT Boots Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980113030250.0068b820@ee.net>
>> I'd like to meet an artist on a major label who has never compromised >> any of his/her music because of label pressure.
well, I very easily could be wrong, but it *seems* to me like Rush has always recorded what they want to, and have always progressed.
and regarding Prism Records DT Boots -
I'd hoped this issue was laid to rest a while back :( I'd like to sum it up in 1-2-3
1. Dream Theater could shut him down today if they *wanted* to, so there is obviously some reason he is allowed to do it.
2. Mike *works* for the money he makes, and it's no-ones business how much he profits from it. If Dream Theater didn't want him to profit from it, they would demand the proceeds right now.
3. If you don't like it you dont have to buy it or support it, but the rest of us should have that choice. If Dream Theater did not want us to access Mike's service, we wouldn't be able to.
The rest is all personal conjecture to me...
buster http://users1.ee.net/buster/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:59:44 -0700 From: Eckie <eckie@asu.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Ytsetabs Message-ID: <34BB1EF0.60B92F39@imap1.asu.edu>
Justin scribbled on the wall:
> Uhhggg, does anyone else here agree with me when I say that whoever does > the tab work for the DT songs on the Under a Cyber Moon web site > sucks???????? Don't get me wrong here, I appreciate the fact that these > guys are trying to help other guitarists out but come on, if they can't do > it then they have no business trying to tab it out!
Well, Mark's already posted about this before; he's not a guitarist, so somebody could paste tab to a Spice Girls song and he wouldn't know. It's this kinda feedback he needs so he can get BETTER tablature. 'N if somebody else can't tab it out correctly, why dontchya sit down and learn it by EAR, like a REAL musician would, eh? >;) (I can hear the burning flames of ytsehell approaching on that comment....) Check out the PROG OR DIE site, they have some tablatures also, and then there's harmony-central.com, the site that EVERY instrumental masturbator should know about by now.
I've given up on trying to learn the tap pattern for the 6:00 keyboard intro :P I'm having a better time just picking it out on the guitar.
> I guess what I'm trying to say, if you want tab, "real tab", then you > should just buy the tab books because you know that they'll be correct..
Heh heh..."real tab?" I'll take a Winter Tabber with my pretzels. None of that Tab Lite for Eckie, no sir!
~Eckie fucks his hand up trying to reach the second and 15th frets at the same time
P.S.- Yeah, I know....learning by ear takes a shitload of time, but if ya can't trust the tab, who can ya trust, eh? Carpe Q-Tip!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:12:53 -0800 From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: KM/DS Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=kbhq%l=KBHQ-980113081253Z-25809@ms.Kallback.com>
>Yes...Kevin will be back shortly. But remember, he still has testicular >cancer. So when he leaves due to having to go to the hospital, Derek will >already be gone and thus there will be no keyboardist for Dream Theater. James told me that both Kev AND Derek were going to be in the band. Also that JP was going to get a keytar, MP was going to get electronic drums and they were going to cover some Thomson Twins and Flock of Seagulls tunes. >
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:13:48 -0700 From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: When Dream and James Unite boot Message-ID: <34BB304C.3D72@goodnet.com>
My comment on WDAJU:
Well, it's a bummer, but it ain't like I had any say so in it, and this *is* bootlegging, so they can basically do what they want. I only hope their sales are poor because many fans already have WDATU. And I do take exception to the name, mainly because the band themselves asked me not to use it ("It doesn't show any integrity", said Mike, I paraphrase that because it was December 1994 when he said it and I ain't Commander Data); and there someone else goes using it anyway, and that just stings the way someone insulting DT would sting, know what I mean?
-- - Mike Bahr / Prism Records - durnik @ goodnet . com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:41:33 -0700 From: Michael Bahr <durnik@goodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3447 Message-ID: <34BB36CD.349C@goodnet.com>
ytsejam@ax.com wrote: > > Boy Chris, you're a real dingus, aren't you? > > Fair enough. Mike, I AM an asshole when I feel that I need to be, > and I am willing to accept that. And regardless, (this is > paradoxical) I really have no problem with you, at all... it's your > cd business that's problematic.
Why not just stop being an asshole? Is that so difficult?
> Whether you re-invest the money or not, it's still money that you're > making off someone else, illegally. This will not be a legitimate > business, and worthy of anyone's appreciation until either the band > is getting their share of the profits, or the band hands you a condom > and bends over.
Whatever. What I make off any given band's efforts, individually, is so small it's really insignificant. They earn more from one magazine ad for Dave's Drumsticks than from everything I do. Don't bring this morality shit up again on the Jam, Chris. It's like asking a professional hit-man if he has a problem with the fact that he kills people for a living. Believe me, they're past that. As am I, as morality applies to *me*. I feel that making so many fans happy outweighs the potential downside. I've been doing this so long that I have no moral problem whatsoever with any kind of piracy, including other companies pirating MY stuff! (See my other post). So I guess I'll see you in hell.
> > There HAS BEEN a price cut. ALREADY. > > And you're making a fortune, and can afford another price cut.
BULL FUCKING SHIT!!!!
Fuck, I might as well just quit. Of course, then you'd win, so I won't. Ah, silly competitive me. But if there's one thing I'm REALLY sick of hearing, it's that. If I was making a fortune, I wouldn't be living week to week. I have NO savings, few assets, and a shitload of debt. This business costs more to run than you think, PERIOD. The price of blank media alone is NOT the cost of manufacturing CDs consistently and in quantity. Did you know that my business itself is legal? That I'm registered with the state and city and that I file taxes on it, and pay them? And that ain't pocket change. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
> Do > the math... this must be quite a comfortable living. I know I've had > jobs where $400 was two weeks pay. I'm not out of line for what I've
This is the only time in the history of my endeavor that I've ever cleared $400 after costs, or did you forget to read that part? On the average day of orders, I clear around $25 to $35, which is LESS than I would make flipping burgers for eight hours. So stick it up your ass and twist, pal. Every dog has his day, and Saturday was mine.
> said. You can stop the charade that you're doing the cds as a > service to the ytsejam. You're doing this as your business. You > said it yourself... you make a living off DT's music. That
I make a living off the music of many other bands as well, and only one DT release per year. 1/12th of my business is not "my entire living". Get it right.
> eliminates the original intent of your cd burning, as we were > introduced to it (simply to make things available to the fans).
Who the hell are you to say what my original intent was? Do you even remember? I was doing the "boots for cash" thing long before CDs, as the owner of Limelight Music doing tapes and videos. I've been doing "this sort of thing" for around 7 years now. The fact that I stepped up and made it something better for the collectors may lend credibility and respect, but it doesn't make me Mother Teresa.
> > Unlike most businesspeople, I have thin skin and no life, and therefore > > Prism Records *IS* my life and anything about Prism is most definitely > > *personal*. I think the people who buy my creations would expect nothing > > less than that level of commitment. > > That's part of the problem... they're buying DT's creations, not> your own.
DT didn't compile and create the product. They performed the music, and that's the extent of it. It's true that is what allows the product to exist in the first place, but it is NOT creating the disc. I work with all the stuff that DT doesn't use or want. How do I know this? Because if they want to use it, they TELL ME, and I don't USE IT!!!
> I have a problem with boots being sold for above > manufacturing costs
Then you're living in a fantasy world, pal. EVERYTHING on the face of this planet, including the underwear you have on RIGHT NOW, is sold for above manufacturing costs. And that company didn't *invent* underwear, they just copied someone else's idea and sold it to you. I guess you're going to have to be a nudist now.
> I just wish you'd quit this charade of "I'm doing everyone a favor"
Where the hell do you read that? I've never said that. Don't put words in my mouth that I've never said. If anything, everyone is doing ME a favor by allowing me to make a living doing something that I love to do. My status updates and good news posts are merely that, good news. Nothing more sinister.
> caring or friendly, no more concerned with the bands wishes or > intents, and no more concerned with who is getting fucked, than any
I am indeed concerned with the band's wishes. If they tell me to stop, I stop. That day. That hour. They have not. They have told me what not to do, and I've carefully avoided doing those things. You're just plain wrong here.
> other business. As far as I'm concerned, Mike Bahr has been a pretty > cool guy. Prism Records (and the businessman Bahr) is another > story altogether.
Same guy, whether you like to think so or not. I am who I am. "I stand by my record... fifteen crashes and not a SINGLE fatality!" - Otto
> Don't make this any more personal than it has to be.
Oh, it's already as personal as it could possibly get. No dumb threats or proclamations here, nothing silly or stupid like that, but suffice it to say I'm definitely never going to be friendly to you unless you quit badmouthing me.
-- - Mike Bahr / Prism Records - durnik @ goodnet . com - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3449 **************************
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