YTSEJAM Digest 3438
Today's Topics:
1) Time to vent!
by Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
2) Letto: Bitching and more....
by Salvatore <hondaa@iol.it>
3) Re: KJLB's vox/"FYS"/what not
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
4) Re: Letto: Bitching and more....
by eckie@asu.edu
5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3436
by "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3436
by Devs0432 <Devs0432@aol.com>
7) Re: Letto: Bitching and more....
by Carol Dellinger <coldfire@pacbell.net>
8) Misc
by Devs0432 <Devs0432@aol.com>
9) Sell outs/wacky tabacky
by "Neal Brown" <nealus@hotmail.com>
10) Progressive...
by Chad Mitchell <kerensky@telepath.com>
11) James sm*king, Tangerine Dream
by Phil Carter <carter@negia.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:32:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Lars Hellsten <lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Time to vent!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980110134922.19343A-100000@laurent.math.uwaterloo.ca>
> I know that my messages are the fault of the "quadruple spacing"
> incident, but I did not do it intentionally. When I typed my messages,
> I only pushed the return key twice between lines. Why an extra line got
> included is a mystery to me.
Please don't give us this "I only pushed the return key twice, not
three times"! You know what he meant! Why don't you just kill all the
extraneous blank lines in your message, period? The convention is that
Blank lines are only used to separate paragraphs, and normally only
ONE is used. There's also no need for anyone's sig to be longer than
a couple of lines.
People aren't complaining because you're wasting bandwidth (the extra
spaces add an insignificant amount of bandwidth relative to your
message, although all in all, they do probably cost a few dollars).
They're complaining because it's ANNOYING. As a result, most people
probably just skip your messages. It's easier to skip a message than
try and read text that's triple- or quadruple-spaced.
What's just as bad though, is all the people who use long DT quotes -
this is a DT list, I think we've all heard those quotes before! You
don't have to have a 10-line sig proclaiming how much of a DT fan
you are on this list!
Next on the agenda is excessive quoting. Only quote a few lines
directly related to the point you're making. DO NOT QUOTE ENTIRE
MESSAGES! If your mail reader by default sticks an entire message
in quotes and then adds your sig at the end, edit out the
unnecessary quoted lines for cryin out loud!
If people can't format their posts properly, they should be filtered
out. The encoded binary attachments are the worst offense of all.
It wouldn't be very difficult to filter those out though. It would
be nice if Skadz could set things up (if I were running a mailing
list, I'd definitely write a program to do this) so that any message
with a MIME attachment is bounced to the sender along with a copy
of the Fucking FAQ! It also wouldn't be too difficult to implement
a quote ratio so that posts in which more than xx% of the text is
quoted are bounced.
I'm sorry to waste bandwidth with this off-topic post, but I'm so
sick of half of every JAM being sigs and encoded binary attachments
that I have to vent. Posting messages as plain, <80-column text
which is easily readable is no more difficult than getting dressed in
the morning. It's not a matter of people being new to the Internet.
This stuff is COMMON SENSE! Most of the messages on this list are
formatted fine. Why can't the rest of you TAKE A CLUE, and format
your messages like veryone else does???
Here's an example of the ideal sig (although another line or two
stating an organization the person is affiliated with, etc. is also
considered acceptable):
** Lars Hellsten (lhellste@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca) **
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:08:05 +0100
From: Salvatore <hondaa@iol.it>
To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Letto: Bitching and more....
Message-ID: <01BD1E09.4C733700@swrm68-79.iol.it>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:12:52 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: KJLB's vox/"FYS"/what not
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980110180548.31413A-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Brian Larkin wrote:
> James' voice is amazing. It did, however, take a while to grow on me.
Strange... It took me, maybe, Plank's time (10^(-43) second :-) )
to like James's voice the first time I heard it. :-)
(just kidding, if any of you can't tell)
In other words, I was *instantly* addicted to his voice. But,
maybe, telling that the first record that I listened to was I&W may
explain everything...
> Bogie . . . I haven't had time to check out that "FYS" mp3 file yet, but
> could you tell me basically how I should download the file, since I'm not
> too familiar w/stuff like that? I'm really anxious to hear it, especially
> after reading some other ppl's reactions to it.
That's easy. Take an MP3 file player (WinAMP, for instance) and
then get your Netscape/Explorer/Lynx/whatever browser you use and download
the file as a usual file you would be downloading. Then, install the MP3
file player and FASTEN YOUR SEATBELTS TO BE BLOWN AWAY BY AN INCREDIBLE
PERFORMANCE OF THE YTSEJAM (many people asked me what it sounds like and I
told them "Imagine how a death metal band would play Ytsejam. That's it."
:-) ).
> cArPe DiEm,
> bRiAn
See ya, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:54:26 -0700 (MST) From: eckie@asu.edu To: ytsejam@ax.com Cc: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Letto: Bitching and more.... Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.980110132829.16106A-100000@general2.asu.edu>
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Salvatore contributed:
> eJ8+IjQTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy > b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQSQBgAAAQAAAQAAAAwAAAAD > bUBheC5jb20AU01UUAB5dHNlamFtQGF4Lm
I'll agree with that, but what I don't understand is what you mean by "selling in?" Mike Portnoy has and will always look great in pink spandex, and although the Lie video does create this chest vertigo, it kinda makes me feel like I'm a bullet, fired off by some poor alternative fan who can't clean his gun correctly, zoomin' right towards the band members.
> NvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAA > AA8AAAB5dHNlamFtQGF4LmNvbQAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAEQAAACd5dHNlamFt > QGF4LmNvbScAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAUAAAAU01UUDpZVFNFSkFNQEFYLkNPTQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB > AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAtgpAQqAAQAhAAAANjc3REQ1NDYwNzg4RDExMUI3RjgwMDIwNzgx > MTRFNDYA5gYBBIABAB0AAABMZXR0bzogQml0Y2hpbmcgYW5kIG1vcmUuLi4uAGgJAQWAAwAOAAAA > zgcBAAkAEwAIAAUABQAEAQEggAMADgAAAM4HAQAJABMACAAFAAUABAEBCYABACEAAAA2ODFBQTcy > NzI1MURCRDExOUE0NTk2MkVDRTFGNURBMwA6BwEDkAYALAMAABsAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAA
And who are you to say that? Have you ever tried masturbating AND playing the guitar at the same time? It's simply a term us guitarists use to describe those who choose distortion over practice in their approach to playing. We usually just laugh at those individuals who mistake their flesh flute for their guitar when they're on stage and move on with our lives. Get over it already. Korn sucks.
> CwApAAAAAAACATEAAQAAAMcAAABQQ0RGRUIwOQABAAIATAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbC
Tell me about your mother.
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For the umpteenth time, Derek is NOT gay (just without female partner), Portnoy is NOT a Jew (he with big honker does a jew not make), Kevin Moore is NOT dying of testicular cancer (they got crushed by a tour bus), D-Man is NOT gay (No, really....and if I had a room mate like his.....), and "Ytse and the Jam" is not some cryptic recipe for Chex and nacho cheese when you have Dream Theater fans visiting your home! Jeez, you do believe everything you read, don't you?
> AAEAAAA7AAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIA > > > > AAAAeXRzZWphbUBheC5jb20AU01UUAB5dHNlamFtQGF4LmNvbQAAHgBEAAEAAAAPAAAAeXRzZWph > > > > bUBheC5jb20AAB4ASQABAAAAFgAAAEJpdGNoaW5nIGFuZCBtb3JlLi4uLgAAAAIBTAABAAAAOwAA > > > > AAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHl0c2VqYW1AYXguY29tAFNNVFAAeXRzZWphbUBheC5j
Oh, now you're just being funny, aren't you?
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And b20AAB4ATQABAAAA yourself, asshole! Dream Theater has and always will be prog metal! How dare you compare their capabilities to the Presidents of the United States and the Spice Girls! Spice Girls are better prog? What the fuck are you smoking? This world really is goin' to hell in a handbasket.
~Eckie is fargin' SICK of this encoded crap, turn it off or suffer the consequences you iceholes!!!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:24:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A. Rivera" <rrivera@zoo.uvm.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3436 Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.980110160504.108998B-100000@gnu.uvm.edu>
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 ytsejam@ax.com wrote: > Egad! What's with all the Kenny G bullshit I keep reading about anyway? I > hope you don't think Kenny G listeners are cheese, too, because you'd need a > HUGE fuckin' ritz cracker to plop me on. > I didn't mean any offense to Kenny or his listeners. I just used him as an example of a lot of people label as "cheese." That's not to say he is objectively cheesey, or even that I consider him as such. The whole point of my original post was that one person's cheese is another person's...cracker, I guess. Personally, I think he's got a great tone and is very talented, but it's not my bag.
--and---
>> By "selling out" I mean playing a specific style just to make a profit. > Not to be creative.
Okay. I agree with you. Thanks for clearing that up.
> >>What do you mean by "benefit?" Are you > referring to being "influenced" by someone?<< > > By "benefit" I mean the attempt to acquire money. Being influenced is a > creative decision, to strive to become rich is a finacial decision.
Once again, thanks for the clarification
> Both. If you ask me, their music is cliche. I have heard this music a > million times before, if this music makes you happy so be it. They seem > to write formulas instad of songs. I like to be surprised, I don't like > to be able to predict the next measure of the song without any effort > whatsoever. > Okay, but formulatic does not equal selling out, especially when they have stayed true to their "formula" (I call it "style") throughout their career. Whether you like the music or not is irrelevant.
> In reality everyone does have an image but when your image takes > presidence over the music that is selling out(IMHO). > Here's where things get tricky. To me, having an outrageous or flamboyant image does not mean the band is more concerned about image than music. It does show a heightened concern for appearance, but not necessarily at the expense of the music itself. That's one of the criticisms people have thrown at 80s hard rock ("pop metal") as a whole, of which Enuff Z'Nuff is commonly associated with. But I do agree with you that in a case where the band's image is more important than the music itself, that would be an example of selling out. But if a band is creatively satisfied by writing formulatic pop songs and having an over-the-top image, I say they're not guilty of selling out. Thus, the only people capable of determining whether a band has sold out or not is the band members themselves, since only they assess their creative satisfaction.
> Richie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:32:54 EST From: Devs0432 <Devs0432@aol.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3436 Message-ID: <1e8e815c.34b7e907@aol.com>
> The 50-some-year-old woman/grandmother/Metallica fan to whom my friend lent > two DT discs (I&W and FII)...she liked them. I care! I think that is mad phat. The DT and Metallica part (as long as it's pre-load) both! Also adding a little to the JLB voice discussion thing: alright, we've decided his voice is amazing, and he should stick with the higher range. I also was sort of put off by it when I first started listening to DT, but it has grown on me, as a fellow jammer so aptly put it. And I LOVE SDV. I think he did a kick-ass job there as well. Btw, does anyone have piano sheet music for that one? I've been searching....
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:40:44 -0800 From: Carol Dellinger <coldfire@pacbell.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Letto: Bitching and more.... Message-ID: <34B7EADC.6B80@pacbell.net>
eckie@asu.edu wrote: > > On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Salvatore contributed: <snip>
>
> > Tell me about your mother.
No no no....don't get Eckie started...please it was sooo peaceful!
> > For the umpteenth time, Derek is NOT gay (just without female partner), > Portnoy is NOT a Jew (he with big honker does a jew not make), Kevin > Moore is NOT dying of testicular cancer (they got crushed by a tour bus), > D-Man is NOT gay (No, really....and if I had a room mate like his.....), > and "Ytse and the Jam" is not some cryptic recipe for Chex and nacho > cheese when you have Dream Theater fans visiting your home! Jeez, you > do believe everything you read, don't you?
Oh no...guess I need to take back that mennorah I got for Mike then.
> Oh, now you're just being funny, aren't you? >
> And b20AAB4ATQABAAAA yourself, asshole! Dream Theater has and always > will be prog metal! How dare you compare their capabilities to the > Presidents of the United States and the Spice Girls! Spice Girls are > better prog? What the fuck are you smoking? This world really is goin' > to hell in a handbasket. > > ~Eckie is fargin' SICK of this encoded crap, turn it off or suffer the > consequences you iceholes!!!
Now why did you guys HAVE to get Eckie started...I just got him back on his medication!
Lord help us all...Eckie is back -- Hearts away.......
Coldfire coldfire@pacbell.net ICQ: 4656934 http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/haight/25
"And all this could be just a dream so it seems, I was never much good at good-bye."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:02:40 EST From: Devs0432 <Devs0432@aol.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Misc Message-ID: <9c038466.34b7f000@aol.com>
>One thing that seems to drag a lot of progmetal bands down these days is a >singer who tries to hard (Ivanhoe anyone?).
a-MEN!! That's been the one thing bothering me about Ivanhoe for a while now. Btw, I met the band (or most of it) for anyone interested, while in Germany last summer at one of their rehearsal/practice things. My cousin is friends with them and almost was the replacement for the guitarist before he came back. I didn't meet Andy (the singer), however.
>James' voice is amazing. It did, however, take a while to grow on me. >That was the ONE thing that kept me from listening to Awake more than I did >during the first few months I had it.
So many people diss Awake. That is my favorite complete album from The Most Amazing Band. I don't get it.
...And ... let me just say CONGRATULATIONS to those picking the top three albums
>Dream Theater Falling Into Infinity - 332 votes! >Fates Warning A Pleasant Shade Of Gray - 186 votes >Megadeth Cryptic Writings - 42 votes
I haven't heard the other two, but all of the above kick major ass. Ba-bye! Alex
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:04:24 PST From: "Neal Brown" <nealus@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Sell outs/wacky tabacky Message-ID: <19980110220424.8834.qmail@hotmail.com>
>Anyone notice how poorly the sales are for the "Sell Out" artists as >of late. If the key word in sell out is "Sell", why aren't they. >Enuff Z' Nuff is one of my favorite groups and no matter what they >due until they break up (i.e.-Originality, sell-out, put out the >greatest album of all time), they will never sell a lot of albums, so >can they really be considered "Sell-Outs", when they can't even sell >their albums? Just some food for thought!
Gee, Metallica isn't doing too bad in the charts right now....
Seriously, it's been pointed out before that just because a record doesn't sell well doesn't mean they tried. Queensryche probably sold a bazillion copies of "Empire" based on the amount of airplay "Silent Lucidity" got on MTV. "Promised Land" as I understand it, didn't do too well. HITNF probably did even worse. (I dunno for a fact, but I think this is correct...) And, conversely, just because it sells a lot of records doesn't mean it's commercial. Phish and Dave Matthews aren't exactly avant-garde, I guess, but they're *damn* good players, and they're not just out there trying to make a buck....hell, Rush, Yes, Jethro Tull all sold quite a few albums in their time.
About James and the weed...I don't really give a flying fuck in a rolling donut about this. I mean, I don't light up--hell, I don't even drink--but it makes no nevermind to me if somebody else does....especially if I don't even know them personally.
Btw, Ptacek...this is actually a rather interesting time in the prog world, although it probably won't last very long....Spock's Beard has a new album coming out, and we've got all sorts of "supergroup" type projects afoot--Liquid Tension, Impact, Gordian Knot...Robert Fripp's DGM label is getting into high gear, they've been chugging out the releases these days....At some point OFB will either record Metro II and some other stuff and slap it on an EP or they'll just cut a whole new album with Metro II on it =) Anekdoten just put out a live album, I think....Yes just put out a new studio album (actually...that's not a reason to get excited ;) they'll just break up in...oh...ten minutes now)...I agree with you that this isn't the early 70s, but it's not bad....
P.S. Now that I mention Metro II...lemme hear the peanut gallery's thoughts on this one. DT has a whole crapload of stuff just sitting around, apparently. Something tells me that some of the guys (MP, probably!) are just chomping at the bit to get back into the studio and cut either the EP or the new album....we may see a new DT full album (another 75+ minute monster? these things would all be considered double albums in the 70s, ya know) within a year and a half....who knows? Discuss =)
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:31:59 -0600 (CST) From: Chad Mitchell <kerensky@telepath.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Progressive... Message-ID: <199801102231.QAA04962@telepath.com>
OK, this brings up something I've been meaning to discuss for awhile now...
>Arash > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| PROG OR DIE - The Progressive Music Page >| DREAM THEATER - FATES WARNING - ROYAL HUNT - SHADOW GALLERY
Now, this is *NOT* intended as a flame, nor a criticism of Arash (or anyone else in particular). I have noticed that some use the term "Progressive Music" and seem to think it only applies to bands such as those listed above, including our beloved DT. To be honest, these bands are "Progressive Metal". If you wanna talk "Progressive" in general, you gotta include the originators of the genre like Yes and Genesis, and the newer bands that carry the flag, i.e., Marillion, Pendragon, IQ, Spock's Beard, etc. Some even go so far as to lump those newer bands separately and call them "Neo-Prog". Whatever. My point (Yes, I do have one!) is that a band does not have to sound a bit like DT to be "Progressive". The term's been around much longer than that.
End of lecture (burns soapbox) Chad Mitchell Owner/GM - Oklahoma Outlaws
"Doctors get to bury their mistakes, Architects can only advise their client to plant vines." -Frank Lloyd Wright
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:33:28 -0500 From: Phil Carter <carter@negia.net> To: Keeper of the Seven Ytses <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: James sm*king, Tangerine Dream Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980110173328.00693ed4@pop.negia.net>
Greetings ye 'jamanoids...(hey that reminds me -- good to have you back, Mape) :)
from Adam:
>>By the way, James smokes!! I met him once in Amsterdam (the day of the >>MELKWEG concert) in Amsterdam in..... a " cofffeeshop". > >I really wish you hadn't said this. Now I know there's gonna be yet >another year long drug/pot/etc thread possibly intertwined with yet another >James bashing thread. My only response to this post is to leave James >alone. If he wants to smoke up where it's legal, more power to him. If he >wants to smoke up where it's NOT legal, more power to him. It makes him no >more or no less of a person and no less a great singer.
No less a great singer? Well, the fact that he smokes makes him "no less a great singer" -- YET. This is the first thing I've read about KJL smoking at all, so I'm glad to know that it's not a full-time thing. I wouldn't give a damn if he smoked or not -- let him do what he wants! -- except for the fact that smoking absolutely RUINS the vocal cords. I don't want to see him end up like Geoff Tate, whom I am sorry to say I like a lot less these days.
Somebody whose name was lost through multiple replies remarked: >> >Jon is right, there are over 40 albums out by TD. I would start with >> >Optical Race. That was the first one I heard and I took to it. I'm >> >surprised nobody has mentioned them before on this list since I've >> >joined. Hell, if we can talk about Metallica on this site, why can't we >> >discuss some TD?
As a longtime Tangerine Dream fan, I can wholeheartedly recommend them to any fan of ambient or pure electronic music (also sometimes mislabeled "New Age"). They aren't prog -- exactly -- but they write some pretty interesting compositions.
If you're looking for a really broad spectrum of their stuff and don't mind shelling out some cash, pick up "Tangents", a 5-CD boxed set with music from their 1973-1983 period. Good single starter discs which are pretty representative of the TD sound include "Canyon Dreams," "220 Volt Live," the aforementioned "Optical Race", "Hyperborea," and "Exit". Of these, the best is probably "Canyon Dreams," with "Optical Race" and "220 Volt Live" right close behind.
Much of TD's stuff is out of print but a lot more is currently being remastered, so many of their discs are reappearing in stores nowadays. Go take a look. Anybody who wants more recommendations, let me know. :)
Cheers, Phil
========================================================= Phil Carter -- carter@negia.net http://www.negia.net/~carter "Music brings peace to the restless, and comforts the sorrowful. They who no longer know where to turn find new ways. And those who have despaired, gain new confidence and love." -- Pablo Casals Currently playing: Rush -- "Signals"
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3438 **************************
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