YTSEJAM Digest 3508
Today's Topics:
1) Xmas CD info (no spoilers)
by "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net>
2) Re: Metallica vs. DT
by Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
3) Working Man's lineup!!!
by Dave Peterson <glyde@scc.net>
4) selling out chat
by "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
5) Re: Working Man's lineup!!!
by Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
6) Unforgiven II
by krackley@weidmuller.com
7) My own rants and raves on Metallica / other stuff
by Nicholas Giannotti <nickg@gis.net>
8) DT demo copy???
by svjohnson@amoco.com
9) Changes in Maturity.. The future is here.
by "Jeremy P. Kube" <jkube@cyberportal.net>
10) Re: Working Man's lineup!!!
by Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
11) Re: Metalli...ah, forget it.
by Steve Zebrowski <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
12) Re: Metallica vs. DT
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
13)
by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
14) More fun
by someone@prognosis.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:04:24 -0600
From: "The Notorious B.I.G. S.W.I.F.T.Y." <swifty@auburn.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Xmas CD info (no spoilers)
Message-ID: <34CE3DC8.3D5C@auburn.net>
> From: Dominique De Jesus Oliveira <ddjo@mhnet.fr>
> I've heard many times about the X-mas CD.
> Does Anybody can tell me about it ?
For some info about the Xmas CD (including a scan of the cover), go to
http://www.auburn.net/~swifty/dreachr2.html
Mark Peters
swifty@auburn.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:06:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Johnston <matt2518@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Metallica vs. DT
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980127120304.2923A-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Andrew Embler wrote:
>
>Now, this argument really intrigued me, and I think it brings up some
>valid points, but, I don't really think it's so much as commercial vs.
>progressive (ie: long) songs as it is good songs vs. crap. (Sorry for all
>you Load/ReLoad fans out there...I've never been really into too much
>Metallica). I'll give you a topic:
>
<snipped>
>
>Now, discuss. :) Some might say that I'm not adequately representing the
>more commercial tracks on Falling to Infinity. But, in my opinion, I'd
>rather listen to TAMP, HY, *OR* Anna Lee as opposed to most things on
>Load/ReLoad. I'm not so sure about YNM, however :)
How about the "less commercial" tracks from L/RL?
Lines in the Sand
New Millenium
Burning my sould
vs.
Bleeding Me (the full 8 minute version)
Fixxer
Where the Wild Things Are
There. That should be a less unfair fight.
--Matt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"..." --James LaBrie, "Hell's Kitchen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:11:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Peterson <glyde@scc.net>
To: DT Mailing list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Working Man's lineup!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980127131416.32241A-100000@SOUND.SCC.NET>
I was listening to the Rush Tribute today and I was wondering who the heck
half the guys listed on the back of the CD were. I mean, sure there's the
obvious ones, but the other half I don't have a clue. So I'm going to
list each and every performer here along with their instrument and band.
Note: I'll be able to discern each man's instrument from the inside
liners but I'm most interested in what band they are in.
I'll fill in what I know, but the rest could you guys help me on?
VERY IMPORTANT: To save space on the 'Jam, for example if you know what
band Robert Berry plays for, please just post his info and don't
just send the ENTIRE damn list of guys with just HIS new info added.
I'll keep up with the 'Jam and I'll post the results when everything's
filled in.
Key: V - Vocals
G - Guitar
B - Bass
D - Drums
K - Keys
Name Instrument Band
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Alder V Fates Warning
Brendt Allman G
Sebastian Bach V Skid Row
Robert Berry V,G,B,K
Jeff Brockman D
Carl Cadden-James B
Deen Castronovo D
Marcel Coenen G Lemur Voice
Trent Gardner K
Stuart Hamm B Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Solo projects
Jake E. Lee G
James LaBrie V Dream Theater
George Lynch G
Eric Martin V Mr. Big
Jim Matheos G Fates Warning
Steve Morse G Dixie Dregs, Solo band
James Murphy G,K
John Petrucci G Dream Theater
Mike Pinnella K
Mike Portnoy D Dream Theater
Michael Romeo G
Jack Russell V
Mark Slaughter V Slaughter
Billy Sheehan B Mr. Big
Devin Townsend V Strapping Young Lad, Vai's Sex & Religion
Joey Vera B Fates Warning
Gregoor Van Der Loo V Lemur Voice
Mark Zonder D Fates Warning
There are some other musicians in the liner notes too, such as:
Richard Chycki G
Matt Guillory K
Brad Kaiser D
Sean Malone B
David Townson G
Gary Wehrkamp K
(Did I miss anybody???)
..But since they weren't in the list of "Featuring performances by" guys,
I can only assume they were players called upon to fill in any missing
instrument in a given song. I am just guessing but I don't really know if
anyone can come up with a band that any of them might be in.
Somehow I feel terrible not coming up with Deen Castronovo, George Lynch
and Brendt Allman's bands (Was he one of the Allman brothers???) ;)
Anyway, if you can contribute to this, please put "Working Man" in your
subject. I'll keep track of the bands and re-post this later all filled-in.
Either that or e-mail me directly at Glyde@scc.net. My account will be
open till the end of the month, then I'm going to Glyde01@aol.com. I feel
horrible about the move but I've hit rough times. ;) AOL SUCKS!!!
Later Kidz!
Dr. Teeth
(Dave Peterson)
P.S. Best solos ever:
Petrucci - Anything with the word "Moon" in it. (There's a couple...)
The opening notes of Roger Waters' "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking"
Vai - Rescue Me or Bury Me
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:21:00 -0500
From: "Tedesco, Matthew" <tedescom@BDD.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: selling out chat
Message-ID: <199801272016.PAA21933@bertelsmanncis.com>
from jason:
>I've been trying to argue this from the beginning. If Metallica
>really wanted to sell out, wouldn't they have written TBA 2?
the best point so far, one i can't argue. they had immense success with
TBA, then altered their sound a great deal. that's more of a risk than
a calculated grab at $, ain't it?
from andrew:
>Burning My Soul
>vs.
>Ain't My Bitch
good matchup. two good bands trying too damn hard to sound all bad-ass
and heavy, and both failing pretty thoroughly. (i shouldn't be
thoroughly unaffected by the opening riffs of AMB, and i shouldn't
giggle every time KJLB belts out, as tough as he can, that "i don't give
a shit, no-o-o!" line.)
--MATt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:30:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen <mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Working Man's lineup!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980127142718.2747B-100000@skipjack.owlnet.rice.edu>
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Dave Peterson wrote:
> I was listening to the Rush Tribute today and I was wondering who the heck
> half the guys listed on the back of the CD were. I mean, sure there's the
> obvious ones, but the other half I don't have a clue. So I'm going to
> list each and every performer here along with their instrument and band.
>
> Note: I'll be able to discern each man's instrument from the inside
> liners but I'm most interested in what band they are in.
>
> I'll fill in what I know, but the rest could you guys help me on?
Actually, all of this info is on the Magna Carta "Working Man" web page:
http://www.zaks.com:80/magnacarta/magcar03.htm
It doesn't mention which band Matt Guillory is in, but I believe it's
Chaos Theory.
Hope this is helpful....
Mark McEuen
mceuen@owlnet.rice.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:44:40 -0500
From: krackley@weidmuller.com
Subject: Unforgiven II
Message-ID: <199801272044.PAA00136@mail.weidmuller.com>
> Jason wrote:
> Anyone see the video of "Unforgiven II" eMpTyV last night? Not a bad
> song, but not as good as the original. The video made no sense at
> all, of course.
I know what you mean, the 11 minute Unforgiven video got me more
confused.
Later, KDR
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:42:38 -0500
From: Nicholas Giannotti <nickg@gis.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: My own rants and raves on Metallica / other stuff
Message-ID: <199801272046.PAA13535@ns2.gis.net>
First:
May I just inject my two cents into the mix and say that Metallica up until
(and NOT including) TBA is fucking awesome. There's nothing like it, IMHO.
Their new stuff is among the worst crap I have ever heard (A friend of mine
listened to 'Load' and mailed it back to the band with a note: "What the
fuck is this?! You guys obviously already SHOT your load!!") And
ultimately, who gives a shit if they sold out or not? So they compromised
their artistic integrity in your eyes - don't buy the album. Easy as that.
And just remember who's laughing all the way to the bank....
Second:
Angellaa asked:
>one quick question to you all
>what did kevin shirley do that is so awful?
>i mean why does everyone seem to hate him so much?
A lot of people on this list who don't like the album seem not to like it
because of the producer, Kevin Shirley. They claim that the drums sound
like ass, or the bass is too low, or that Derek's keys are too low, or
other things. That's why a lot of the people on this list want Kevin
Shirley's head on a platter.
I, for one, think he's a fuckin' genius.
Third:
>You have been carefully selected to receive the following as a person
>obviously interested in this subject based upon your previous internet
>postings, or visits to one of our affiliate web sites.
YEAH!!! Lick my nuts and call me gorgeous! Where the hell does this stuff
come from!??!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:50:03 -0600
From: svjohnson@amoco.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: DT demo copy???
Message-ID: <199801272055.AA06394@interlock.amoco.com>
Hey all!
I saw Damon ask for a copy of some DT FII stuff. I also saw mention
of a DT IFC X-mas CD and pre-Shirley demos. Is there ANYONE who could
make a casette copy of this stuff for me? I am especially interested
in the pre-Shirley demos. PLEASE e-mail me if you can help!!
THANKS!!!
Steve
svjohnson@amoco.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:14:53 -0500
From: "Jeremy P. Kube" <jkube@cyberportal.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Changes in Maturity.. The future is here.
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980127161453.0079d430@cyberport.cyberportal.net>
Hey all..
I was just thinking about the changes in music today and I must say that I
am VERY happy with how music is changing now. The way I see it, it's on
the rebound.. Like music had a really bad drug habit it had to kick you
know, like Morton Downey Jr. Oh, maybe that was a bad analogy.. Is there
any help for that guy.. anyways..
Music had it's high times and it's bad times. It seems IMHO that every
decade has 2-4 years of aweful music. For example: The 60's...It wasn't
until 1963 (?) that the Beatles came.. Rock was being transformed into what
it is today, then the 70's for a couple years there it was really poor,
Jimmy Hendrix died, Jim Morrison died and we were left with something
aweful for a few years.. Led Zepplin, Sabbath, Deep Purple and Rush kept
people happy.. Then the major birth came. The 80's. Again this decade had
a bad few years 80-82 if I can remember, sure there was an occasional good
song, but no "awesome" music. I think my favorite time for music was the
late 80's.. '87 to '91 Then the ultimate low in music EVER, Alternative.
Now, it's on the rebound again.. Bands like Big Wreck, Matchbox 20, Tool,
Korn and 311 are on the charts. This is a big plus because atleast there
is some "decent" music in here. When I speak about bands right now, I am
talking about "mainstream" music. There have always been "awesome" bands
that didn't get the airplay they deserve, just because they weren't super
catchy.
To sum it all up, everything is getting better. IMHO. I think that when
the new millenium comes, we won't be disappointed.
Laterz, J
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:21:49 -0500
From: Eric Rodger <erodger@fore.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Working Man's lineup!!!
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127162149.00adf100@mailhost.eng.fore.com>
Some more info on the WM tribute guys:
>
>Jake E. Lee G Ozzy, Badlands, and Ratt (very early on)
>George Lynch G Dokken, Lynch Mob, and auditioned for Ozzy
>Steve Morse G Dixie Dregs, Solo band (and don't forget
Kansas, for awhile)
>James Murphy G,K Was he in Testament?
>Jack Russell V Great White
>Billy Sheehan B Mr. Big (don't forget Talas and DLR band)
>Joey Vera B Fates Warning (he was in Armored Saint for
the bulk of his career)
>Sean Malone B I think he was in Cynic
KAI
- Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:24:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Steve Zebrowski <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Metalli...ah, forget it.
Message-ID: <199801272124.QAA07600@umbc9.umbc.edu>
> Because Metallica basically said, in so many words, We'll never make
> a video, or wear makeup or cut our hair and play poppy power
> ballads... and now look at them? Selling out doesn't ruin a band.
Oh, come ON! You can't seriously include the hair cutting thing in this
argument. As far as power ballads are concerned, they don't have any. As
far as videos, well, people change their minds. It's not as if the "One"
video was going to get a lot of airplay anyway.
> For me, though, someone with that little integrity is hard to
> tolerate. It's not just a change of heart... they abandoned every
> tenet that they believed in, and somehow, mysteriously, their new
sure, and they did believe in them at the time, but that doesn't mean they
were RIGHT.
> albums got a lot more MTV play, radio coverage, etc... must just be a
> lucky break, huh? I'm sure this popular explosion they've
> experienced isn't a manufactured event...
Yeah, James woke up one morning and said, "today I'll manufacture a
popular explosion for my band."
So many people talk abouta band selling out as soon as that band gets
exposure. I hope all of you with bands looking for zero exposure are
really happy.
> band now, and they should use a different band name. I know.. Bush
> is already taken.
I'm going to cut my hair. should I change my name to Bush? :)
> I guess if they had any talent, I'd be more forgiving towards their
> lack of integrity (as I am with Yngwie, though I don't have his last
> 20 albums).
Wait a minute. How can Yngwie not have integrity? He's been through how
many record labels now? And all because he would not change his style. A
style that has been proven to sell poorly and d even be annoying to the
public at large.
Steve Z
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:34:59 -0200 (EDT)
From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@dijkstra.ime.usp.br>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Metallica vs. DT
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980127193420.13102C-100000@dijkstra.linux.ime.usp.br>
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Andrew Embler wrote:
> Lines in the Sand
> New Millenium
> Burning My Soul
> vs.
>
> Ain't My Bitch
> 2 x 4 (ugh)
> The Memory Remains
This selection of tracks isn't fair. Enough said.
[]s, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@ime.usp.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:41:38 -0500 From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.19980127164138.3ccf8bb0@mail.ici.net>
>You are laboring under the illusion that any opinions have any validity to >anyone who does not agree with the opinioner. Opinions are made up of an >infinite number of those things like "I don't like pussy ballads" or "I >don't like songs that sound like 80s hair metal" or "I love songs that are >so complex that I can't tap my foot to them" or "I like jazz" or "My >favorite bands played in the 70s" or ...
That's actually kind of the point I was trying to make, I just didn't quite get it there. I agree that someone's view of a song, a band, or a type of music is shaped by all the opinions/prejudices/etc. that he holds toward music in general. The problem I have is when you say that all these opinions and whatnot can be boiled down and represented by a single numerical value that is then considered globally valid. Absolutely not true.
_____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________________ E-mail: (psull)-(at)-(ici)-(dot)-(net) IRC: DDictator WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html NP: Dream Theater - "Falling Into Infinity" ______________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:56:11 +0000 From: someone@prognosis.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: More fun Message-ID: <199801272148.NAA26307@odin.ax.com>
> From: CLARK ABEL <99ABEL@alma.edu>
I love how you refuse to let something like this be enjoyable, as well as refusing to acknowledge my request to take it to private e-mail. But since you insist on raising points that address my credibility, I will respond here, as you desire.
> Videos and poppy power balads? So basically what you're saying (and > please feel free to disagree) is that musically Metallica's become no worse > than DT, it's just that they said they weren't going to?
You completely seperated two parts of a conditional statement that I made. It's not just the selling out, it's the lack of any standards. For your benefit, I will cut and paste things from my last post that you clearly must have missed. I'll highlight things that seem important: ------ FOR ME, though, SOMEONE WITH THAT LITTLE INTEGRITY is hard to tolerate. It's not just a change of heart... they ABANDONED EVERY TENET THEY BELIEVED IN, and somehow, mysteriously, their new albums got a lot more MTV play, radio coverage, etc... must just be a lucky break, huh? ------ What I'm trying to convey, is that it's not just the change in their music that bothers me. I have to be able to respect the people in the band too, unless they have such amazing ability as to hold off my judgement. For example, I lost a lot of respect for Chris DeGarmo when he said in a Guitar World interview that his main influence was "a whole lot of pot." That bothers me on a level outside of the music (not the fact that he smokes up, but that he glorifies it as a writing tool). With Metallica, there's nothing awesome in the music to make me look past the members... and after pumping up all their fans with their "we'll never play like all those fuckers" attitudes, I can't help but think that they're a bunch of assholes for doing just that. ------ As for your comparison to DT selling out, MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND ------ If you read what I said, and stop taking my disagreements as an attack, you'll see that I'm not telling you what DT did or didn't do, as a matter of fact. I'm offering my take, in a matter of opinion. Accept that. There's no reason to treat it any differently. And if it's only my opinions you want to attack, then do it in private e-mail, for God's sake.
More: ------- What I have a problem with, is a dramatic change in sound that is clearly, to my mind, motivated by cash alone,WHEN THE BAND WAS STEADFAST IN DEMANDING that they'll always be heavy, etc. ------- You keep seperating these points, when I make them as a single, conditional statement.
> And DT didn't sell > out because even though they do the same stuff, they've said all along that > they were all about videos and poppy power balads so they're allowed to do them > without selling out and Metallica's not.
There you go. You're back at your old games again, jumping in and putting words in my mouth. Here, again, from my last message: ------- Selling out doesn't ruin a band. To an extent, DT SORT OF DID by their attitudes, ... -------
> You're saying that "selling out" (which incidentally I think is a really stupid, > meaningless term that no one will ever agree upon)
Thanks for the insult. Unfortunately, it's a very oft used, oft understood term, that you yourself have utilized in your own posts.
> has nothing to do with the music being played, but the > image that was originally being portrayed and whether the band remained true > to that. I doubt you'll actually defend that stance and instead say that I'm > putting words in your mouth,
But if you look at what you're saying, and what I cut and pasted back into the message, isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing? You can not deny it, now... This time there's absolute proof in front of you. Why would I defend a stance that I did not make, or believe in? READ MY POST! That's all you have to do, and you'll see that you're out of line!
> but that's what you're implying with your argument > about Metallica. On the other hand, if this *is* your definition of "selling > out", I doubt many people would agree with it.
Selling out has to do with changing your style to one degree or another in order to make more money. Whether it's musical, or whether literary, or political, or whatever. > No, I'm sure it was very much calculated. My point was that DT has > , to some extent, though admittedly not to the same extent, done the same > thing, but you try to attribute an entirely different cause when it's a band > you like.
Again, as above, from my last message: ------- SELLING OUT DOESN'T RUIN A BAND. To an extent, DT sort of did by their attitudes ------- I think it's clear there that I just said, DT did modify some of their sound to attempt to catch more fans in their web.
>You said recently that you think a band has to actually sell a lot > of albums to sell out
You are correct in that statement. This was pointed out to me, when I hadn't considered the issue fully, and I made a rather poor attempt at a definition. I later conceded that point. But how does that come into play here? Why do you always seem to have to attack me, instead of the issues you disagree with?
> > Do you comprehend the difference in their "success" between their > >earlier albums and their later? > > Yep. Actually, I can't truly comprehend any one "artist" selling that > many copies of anything, but it happens every day.
Then your own point was an error. If you understand the difference in success, then you understand why they changed their sound to grab for more cash, right? That, in conjunction with the statements they had made, is all I was trying to get across. You're the only one who missed that point. > Metallica... I think they're a joke. But they did basically give a big middle > finger to all their old fans... now wouldn't just doing what the fans want > also be one sign of "selling out"?
Sure. Ignore the fact that they clearly distinguished what THEY thought was important in the music. They made their stance, and cut down countless bands that weren't playing as heavy as they were. In this case, you can't fall back on "what the fans want." That's not the issue in question. The issue I was discussing is the fact that they stated their ideals and standards, and later discarded them for cash. DT never said "We'll never make any attempt to reach a bigger fan base... we will never do videos, or any of that bullshit." Because of this, I don't find it insulting when they make videos, lighter songs, and what not. I'm the last person on this list to even call Dream Theater my favorite band. I don't defend DT blindly, because they CAN do wrong... they can make an album I won't like at all. The fact is, they just haven't done that yet. God forbid that I should be pleased with what I hear...
> When a band like Metallica sells a lot of > albums, people are going to say they sold out no matter how they do it.
Sure. But you can't automatically include me in "people." I listen to the music and understand it before I judge it.
> if you think a good band "progresses" by doing something fresh with every > album, then didn't Metallica sell out a long time ago when they did the exact > same album three times in a row?
Show me where selling out has anything to do with progress. Show me where I said that. You want to say that it's bullshit for me to defend myself by saying "you're putting words in my mouth" but that's all you do. And then you belittle me, because the points you wish I had said don't make any sense.
> or regression; I'll just say that I doubt the new stuff could > be much simpler than the old.
Then you're placing more emphasis than I do on complexity. I don't get hung up on that. Technical ability can be the saving grace of a band, but by itself, it is useless.
"Apathy is the "suckbird" on cynicism's bloated carcass." - Dennis Miller
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice!
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3508 **************************
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