YTSEJAM Digest 3973
Today's Topics:
1) YNM Parody
by AL <al@isd.net>
2) Re: calm down
by Adam Pye <alpineone@mindspring.com>
3) I swear this post has NOTHING to do with bootlegs : )
by Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>
4) Zap Mama
by Lobsterback <hender@wam.umd.edu>
5) Three fucking days (major DTC)
by EricD91011@aol.com
6) Update
by Alan Estrada <alan_estrada@bigfoot.com>
7) Savtage, Atlanta, June 14th
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
8) You say potatoes....
by "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com>
9) Irony by Joe Kruger.
by almar@freemail.nl
10) History is made in Jam 3972: I totally agree with Chris Ptacek on every issue!!!
by Michael Bahr <durnik@ANTISPAMgoodnet.com>
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:07:43 -0500
From: AL <al@isd.net>
To: YTSELAND <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: YNM Parody
Message-ID: <357CC31F.DC2F1E87@isd.net>
Joe wrote:
>Reading from you is driving me batty
>Watching you post is making me catty
>You're trying to make a place in the jam
>Telling me lies and sending me spam
>Missing the jokes to try to confound me
>You are so dumb, you really astound me
Now that's funny! One of the better parodies I've read.
-- See ya, AL... The YTSE ProgtologistSwitchcraft Communications & Microsystems http://www.isd.net/astrosch/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected. - Red Buttons
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:13:32 -0400 From: Adam Pye <alpineone@mindspring.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: calm down Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980609011332.0080a5d0@mindspring.com>
Alex Smith said:
>man, in three days this list has turned into a complete bootleg flame-fest! >calm down people, and let's have some real discussions. i don't think people >are going to change their opinions that easily.... as they say, "whatever >floats your boat."
I say we change to a new flame-fest. How about flaming Alex here, who has a 28 (!!!) line signiture file (including chao). You know what they say about chicks with big signature files...
:)
__________________________________________________ Adam Pye (Alpine/Alpineone/Alpione) alpineone(-at-)mindspring.com ICQ: 9382967 http://www.mindspring.com/~alpineone/tapelist.html ^ Above URL for bootlist w/ setlists __________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:17:42 -0700 From: Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: I swear this post has NOTHING to do with bootlegs : ) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980608231742.008be280@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>
First of all, Alex Smith, PLEASE shorten your sig. I know those lyrics too. I agree they're great. But take 'em out of your sig.
As for Ptacek's recent additions to this bootleg collectibility issue, I kind of feel I have to respond. And the only reason Im not taking it private is that I feel it is different enough from the "boots rool/boots suk" debate.
>> that those days are drawing to a close. With CD-R technology as affordable >> as it is today, there are a lot of people that dont own originals, dont >> seek the originals out, and dont care to. I think that is a shame. > > Why is it a shame, when the quality of the originals and the >quality of the copy are exactly the same?
I made no mention of the sound quality of the copies versus the original print run. I am merely saying that the attitude of late is that against bootlegs being a collector's item. Im saying that it was a better time when people could buy a bootleg and feel proud because they owned something that other people didnt. That time is passing, and I think it is a shame. Period.
>> No one cares about collectibility anymore. I bought some extra copies of >> some of the early Bahr boots, and Ive been hanging on to them because I >> wanted to be able to supply "rare" and "hard to find" Bahr boots when they >> were in demand later on. My intention was only ever to offer the boots for >> what the market demanded, but now those plans are pretty much shot. > > ROFLMAO! Your INTENTION, in other words, was to turn a profit >later on when the values were up.
Yup. Thats exactly what I said, but at the same time, I dont think that is necessarily a bad thing. Its called investment, and even though it may go totally against your values, tough shit. Its called supply and demand, and whether it is with DT bootlegs or shiny sequined jumpsuits from the 70's, it all means the same thing; I get what I want, my customer gets what he wants. Thank god for capitalism.
If the demand for an Antiquities goes up to $50 bucks, and someone wants one, should I sell it to them for that much? Hell yeah, cuz I get my money, and my buyer gets their collectible item, which THEY deem worth whatever they paid for it. If the value isnt at $50, do I bitch? No. Just like you said, its a market game, and Im not going to bitch if something I predict to be a collectible in a few years doesnt turn out to be that way.
>But not unlike me with my 1989 Donruss Baseball cards, and my Magnus Robotfighter #1, >you >held out too long and ain't gonna get dick. That's life. It's not a shame, and it's not >unfair.
I didnt say that aspect was a shame, and I certainly didnt say that aspect of bootlegs was unfair. I believe that was Forcier.
>You're playing a market here, and you have to expect this kind of >thing. Get it out of your head that you offer a service by getting extra >discs. If there's a limited print run, you offer a disservice by >purchasing multiples.
I completely disagree with you here. What I said about offering a service still holds. What about all the people that werent around when Mike was offering his 500 limited edition silvers of Subcon and Antiquities? Lets say 500 different people bought an original silver of SubCon, and each person loves it and is unwilling to sell their copy (like I am with my boots). What is someone that subbed to the jam in 1998 gonna do when they are willing to pay market-rate for that original disc as a collector's item and all 500 copies that were sold are in the hands of people who would rather give away their first born son than part with their SubCon? Those fans are shit out of luck. But buying multiple copies of that original run, I 1) create demand that favors me, and 2) provide a newcomer a chance to purchase an original run, and that favors him. Everyone wins, except DT. For that, talk to Bahr about creating the boots in the first place.
>Even if it's an unlimited run, you're still not helping anyone but yourself when you auction shit >off.
This makes no sense. If it is an unlimited run, it wouldnt make sense to auction it off. And I am not auctioning off copies, Im selling off the original silvers. That was what started this whole deal, when someone (Forcier?) wanted to sell his CD-Rs for more than he bought them for, when they were still available from Bahr.
>And the flood will not recede... it can only get worse, because like me, most >people would prefer to get the product (the MUSIC, not the art and liners) >for $5 instead of $30. If I want visual art, I'll paint or buy a >painting. I buy cds for audio.
Ok, fine. But dont bitch people out because they are interested in the audio AND the collector's value. I like the collectibility of my boots as well as their music, and Im sure there are others that feel that way. They are just too scared to post because they value an uncharred asshole : ) To some people it IS worth the $100 to get the "liners," as you put it.
>>I think that sucks, and not because I cant turn a profit, but >> because noone will feel the pride I once felt of owning a collectible. > > I'm sorry. I TOTALLY respect you and Forcier, but I think this is >such a load of bullshit... it's laughable.
Just as I repect you, but it seems we are on completely different planes if you dont understand my and other's the need for rarity and collectibility. For me and others on the jam, it happens that we like the collectibility of our DT boots. For others like yourself, it may be baseball cards or comic books. People collect different things. I collect DT boots, and I enjoy it, and I would rather have an original silver of SubCon than a CD-R of it. Yes, I know the audio is an exact replica, but given the choice, and with money as no object (as is the case with many hardcore collectors like myself), I would choose for the original. Its that simple.
> You're comparing apples and oranges. By your logic, I should >grieve the loss of my first I&W cd, because the one I bought to replace it >isn't the same print run.
Yes. That is EXACTLY what I am saying, and it is funny that you should bring up losing one's original copy of I&W. For various reasons, I had to give up my first copy of I&W, my very favorite CD. And when I gave it away, I felt like I lost a part of myself, because I valued it so highly. It had special meaning to me, sentimental value. I eventually went out and bought another copy of it just because I couldnt bear not having the music, but I look at it and it just isnt the same. The liner doesnt have the familiar nicks and scratches. When I FINALLY met DT and had them sign the liner to my second I&W, I couldnt help but think how cool it would have been to have them sign my *original* copy of I&W. So yes, I DID grieve the loss of my first copy of I&W.
>Fuck the inner satisfaction of knowing "if I want to sell this, I can make my money >back." That's the wrong fucking attitude.
No man, thats not my attitude. I has never been my attitude. The fact that I will make my money back is favorable, and I wouldnt do it if that werent the case, but to me it is about giving people who originally didnt have the chance to own a collectors item that very opportunity. If you dont trust me, that is too bad. But dont think that I dont have that attitude just because _you_ wouldnt in a similar circumstance. I dont want to start any real arugument here, I just wanted to make clear that within the DT boot community, "collectibility" does exist, whether you like it or not. I also didnt want to let you put words and attitudes in my mouth without responding.
Respectfully,
Jon
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 02:28:24 -0400 From: Lobsterback <hender@wam.umd.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Zap Mama Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980609022824.009701b4@pop.wam.umd.edu>
>Subject: music that kicks ass- zap mama >..........anyone else ever heard of them?
Heard of them? We had a whole *unit* on them in Ethnomusicology...the most useless class known to man...
Mostly it was bitching about Peter Gabriel appropriating nonwestern music without giving the 'ethnic' musicians fat western record contracts.
And, of course, complete nutter ideas like how the umlaut in the name of female group D'c=FCckoo was a way of capturing, whilst taunting, the masculinity of silmilarly ridiculously umlauted hypermasculine bands like M=F6tley Cr=FCe, Queensr=FFche, and R=E4tt. Okay, maybe not Ratt. Several = pages on the subject, in any case.
>I'll be on the next episode of "America's Stupidest Criminals"!=20
Quality show.
Officer: Do you speak English? Drunkard: <through traffic cone> NO!
(then later we see "Drunkard" dancing around with the very same traffic cone on his head - killer)
Brian "Posh Zap-Mama" Henderson
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Name: W. Brian Henderson, Esq. Contact: hender@wam.umd.edu ROBOT-CENTRAL: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~hender/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:37:25 EDT From: EricD91011@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Three fucking days (major DTC) Message-ID: <d0d57a91.357cd826@aol.com>
Well, I will speak of things that are true about Mike Bahr and OAN records -- the flame war is not my concern. I received an email from OAN stating they had sent my Dream Theater "Static Progress" cd Friday morning. I received the damn thing today. That is three days. Three fucking days. Like most people on this list I was a former believer in the Mike Bahr school of thought. Excellent products that make the wait worth while. However, as customer service vanishes (hell Mike owes me 25$ in cash), I must commend OAN on their service and their product which I am 100% confident rivals anything Bahr can deliever. "Static Progress" looks professional, has great DT pictures (hell even one of JP with no facial hair and he looks ripped, you have to see it), and above average to excellent sound. The setlist is unique with TTT, ToT, Speak to Me, Lie, etc and again it arrived in three fucking days. I move we petition Mike Bahr to forego making any other DT cd's after SoC so our patience will no longer be tried and our desire for everything DT will not be exploited. Leave the cd making to the professionals and let the fans enjoy the result. Take the time.
-Eric
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 01:43:58 -0500 From: Alan Estrada <alan_estrada@bigfoot.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Update Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980609014358.0080e3d0@academ04.mty.itesm.mx>
Finally, Im out of school!!! Im on vacations again! ok, calm down, this doesnt mean I'll be posting 5 times a day...well at least I'll try not to do it... this post is just to let you people know that Im updating my site, I still dont update my bootlist (Im not trading at the moment) but I'll be putting some new sections into it, I havent got the DT pictures I took at FT Worth but they will be there soon, I promisse, I'm uploading some MIDI files that I've done, they will be online by friday (I hope)
but the good news is that Im putting an MP3 of the week section, it is starting this week and the first MP3 listed there is part of the medley that Dweezil zappa and Mike keneally used to play with Z when they were on tour, the medley is 30 minute long but I did separate files of 5 megs each, this week I uloaded the 60's medley, but I'll be uploading the 70's, 80's and 90's medleys, they are pretty cool, you can listen to keneally singing disco songs or dweezil playing page's riffs....Bryan Beller on Bass, Joe travers on drums and Ahmet on vocals, I'll try to upload rarities on the MP3 section and no things that you can get on albums, I think it will be interesting, i hope I wont run out of ideas.... http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2025/
check it out and let me know your thoughts.
thanks a lot --- Alan Estrada Adler ICQ #9267174
Personal Page: http://www.geocities.com/collegepark/2025 Shredder's Lair: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/7842/
Monterrey, Mexico -------------------------------------------------------- TAKE NOTE OF MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: alan_estrada@bigfoot.com
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:07:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Savtage, Atlanta, June 14th Message-ID: <199806090707.AA13447@crl.crl.com>
err, make that Savatage :)
Okay, a few Ytsejammers will be going to this show here at the Outer Edge on the 14th. We'll be having an unofficial gathering, a "big, evil YtseBunch" (@ 1997 Madsman) in the parking lot by the venue the day of the show. Anyone who's going, please email me and let me know and we can play prog-stuff in the lot and amaze the unknowing rubes who haven't heard, say, LTE yet. :)
I'm thinking about 6pm, maybe 5pm. It's a Sunday, assuming the date is still okay. :)
-- Sometimes a view from sinless eyes / Centers our perspective Paul W. Cashman And pacifies our cries / Sometimes the anguish we survive vanyel@crl.com And the mysteries we nurture / Are the fabrics of our lives ICQ# 4151223 "Lines in the Sand," Dream Theater - FALLING INTO INFINITY www.crl.com/~vanyel
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:01:18 -0700 From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com> To: "'Ytsejam'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: You say potatoes.... Message-ID: <30434A6945ABD1119A3A00A024D1C34170A3A7@ms.kallback.com>
i don't think people are going to change their opinions that easily.... as they say, "whatever floats your boat."
Or as JLB and the rest of those hosers would say, "Whatever floats your BOOT!"
Take off, eh Trevor NP-Aldo Nova-s/t
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:51:43 GMT From: almar@freemail.nl To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Irony by Joe Kruger. Message-ID: <199806090851.IAA11413@freesrv2.freemail.nl>
> Dedicated to Simon Wilkins > and almar@freemail.nl > > Irony (You Not Me parody) > > Reading from you is driving me batty > Watching you post is making me catty > You're trying to make a place in the jam > Telling me lies and sending me spam > Missing the jokes to try to confound me > You are so dumb, you really astound me > > That's alright that's okay > You're dumber every single day > You are so lame > But I've got time > > It's all about irony > It's all about the things > That we expect from a newbie > There's never time to explain > And we're expecting you to have a brain > > It's all about irony > It's all about irony > > You really are as thick as a brick > Reading your posts is making me sick > You post what you want > We're not moderated > You're missing the point > Your humor is faded > I say you gotta think before you respond to > The posts that appear to really dumbfound you. > > It's all about irony > It's all about the things > That we expect from a newbie > There's never time to explain > And we're expecting you to have a brain > > It's all about irony > It's all about irony > > That's alright that's okay > You're dumber every single day > You are so lame > But I've got time > > It's all about irony > It's all about the things > That we expect from a newbie > There's never time to explain > And we're expecting you to have a brain > > It's all about irony > It's all about irony > It's all about irony > > Don't anybody call me Desmond Jr. :-) > == > > Joe Kruger > joekruger@yahoo.com >
Now THAT is funny! Ha, ha, ha.
( I guess I was overreacting on the subject Portnoy = Satan ).
Greetings, Almar.
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 02:11:05 -0700 From: Michael Bahr <durnik@ANTISPAMgoodnet.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: History is made in Jam 3972: I totally agree with Chris Ptacek on every issue!!! Message-ID: <357CFC29.7A2C@ANTISPAMgoodnet.com>
Before I get into the meat of my post, I didn't see the OAN music retraction until after I had posted the heavy-handed post that may or may not ever show up (Skadz may have intercepted it, or whatever) and I guess it's just as well. The gist of it was about limited editions and such, but I made some assessments of OAN (rookies, pretenders, etc) that I'd rather not have. If it ever does show up, please read it as though OAN is not a part of the post. I won't post anything more about them specifically. I didn't get into a cussing match, but I still feel as though I was unprofessional about the whole thing.
Joe Kruger writes: > Irony (You Not Me parody)
Very nice!! I like!
Glenn writes: > If this bootleg thread is going to continue can you at least somehow put the > positive spin on it? Like what are the best boots and or Tapes that are being > traded in various circles. I'm sure several of us have at least a favorite> performance that has not been issued by OFB's record label.
Oooh, good thread!! I'll chime in a few to get people started.
3/4/93 Limelight, NYC - The Dance of Eternity show. Our first taste of A Change of Seasons. This boot was a longtime favourite and the sound quality bears this out.
11/15/93 Palasesto, Milan - Lost in the Sky show. 11/26/93 Nottingham, Britain - Mike Portnoy sings Surrounded. 'Nuff said
11/??/94 Denver, CO - partly contained on Tap The Rockies. I finally got a hold of this entire tape a while back... an FM broadcast (so basically near-soundboard quality) of an entire Awake show. Yeah, we've heard the Awake setlist a lot, but this was a rather lively performace for the Boyz and as it stands is NOT available on any boot CD in its entirety! (Tap The Rockies is missing CIAW and Metropolis if I recall correctly). If OAN, Scarred, or Nick Bogovich has a 0-gen DAT of the radio broadcast, they should release this whole show! I'd do it myself but my tape of it isn't even as clear as Tap The Rockies is.
A few other Awake tour shows exist in rather clear recorded form, chief among them 1/24/95 Urawa Japan. Others include 10/25 Toronto (complete with Faded and Set the Sun), 12/4 Tucson, 12/9 Los Angeles (an LA deejay has the soundboard DAT of this and has played pieces of it on the air), and several from Europe in early 1995, including 1/31/95 Uncovered.
Then of course the four HFTH tour shows, 12/27 thru 30, 1995, and the Fix for 96 shows. Every single '95 show and nearly every '96 show is worth having as there are subtle nuances unique to each and they're the only dates from those years.
Then Los Angeles HOB 11/11/97... the soundboard of this is truly nice, and the performance is hammed up and fired up and just generally mayhem.
5/18/98 Los Angeles House of Blues - Enough said. Mike Portnoy himself proclaims it the greatest.
Chris Ptacek wrote: > Agreed.
He had a lot more to say also, some below, and I agree across the board with pretty much all of it.
Many of you whom he addressed take issue to the fact that I did promote the original silvers as collectibles back then. That is true, and there was a specific reason for it. Back then, the collectibility of the silvers was a FACT, not a CHOICE, from my end of the bridge. If I had my druthers I would have an infinite supply of the stuff. I could have been selling Acoustic Dreams silvers this whole time without even trying... and given that 500 of them sold within weeks, we're talking two YEARS of continuous sales. Therefore, it logically follows that a finite supply is a MINUS for the producer of the discs. However rather than just get them, sell them, run out, and then shrug, I took lemons and made lemonade, by taking the rarity of the discs and turning it from a liability into an asset. Now that I have control over quantities produced, it's no longer morally right for me to refuse to make a given disc or title (this is assuming that there's no problem with the original master disc or whatever). Of course, one could say it's morally wrong to make boots to begin with, but once I've gone past that decision, the best possible thing I can do is to at least make sure that the fans who want the discs can still buy the discs, whether they subscribed to the Jam in 1993 or 1998.
If I ever get a silvers machine, I will still have to deal with the limitations of silvers printing processes, which is to say minimum runs of 500 and expensive glass masters. That means that all those silvers of old are 99.9% certain NOT to be ever reproduced on silver disc. And THAT is why Subconscious discs sell for $100 and up, and Acoustic Dreams originals half again more than that. If there are 5,000 people that want something and only 500 people have it, it follows that it will sell for 10 times its original price. Give or take. If I get a silvers machine, it would be financial suicide for me to make anything other than new titles on it, as high print runs on old titles would not be justified, and the glass masters for my original silvers are long gone anyway. And they cost $hundreds each to re-cut.
Chris replied to Graham Boyle thus: > > It is wrong just cos YOU say so, is it ? > So you think it's better for fans to have to pay an inflated price > for a cd boot than get it for the dirt they should? Cast Bahr's > intentions aside... if you really believed that, you wouldn't have ever > dubbed a cd bood, Gaz. It's not about OAN records... the issue is about > boot availability. At least Bahr, who only loses, financially from boots > becoming more widely available prefers that boots be available in whatever > form, to whoever wants them. That way, if you need an original, you
EXACTAMUNDO. If they're gonna be widely available, we should at least go the distance and do it across the board. When someone has control of supply, the onus is upon them to please both the fan and the collector in some manner.
> Why would this be an issue for Bahr? He sells completely > different boots than the ones that OAN sells. They may pressure him
This is important enough that one should read it again if one was thinking of posting a flame against me. Last time I checked, neither of us were selling the "creations" of the other. Nor did I plan to. Nor do I sell the works of Berkhout, King, or Delp, all of whom seem to have disappeared and/or discontinued discs. It's a matter of respect. The stuff is (and should be) theirs to distribute.
-- - Mike Bahr - Prism Records - remove ANTISPAM in my address to reply - Duelists' Convocation Level 2 Certified Judge - d u r n i k @ g o o d n e t . c o m - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/ - If it's nae Scottish, it's CRAP!
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3973 **************************
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