YTSEJAM Digest 3972
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Be-de-be-de-be-de...
by Ville Paukkonen <ville@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
2) DT Tablature books
by Elizandro Max Borba <elimax@aton.inf.ufrgs.br>
3) advertisement in a local paper
by "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com>
4) music that kicks ass- zap mama
by Thrak75@aol.com
5) Flotsam and Jetsam (NDTC/NMBC)
by Kevin Madden <kwmadden@pipeline.com>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3970
by "Miguel Farah F." <miguel@webhost.cl>
7) calm down
by "Alex Smith" <bacchus@azstarnet.com>
8) as long as everyone else is...
by Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu>
9) Irony
by Joe Kruger <joekruger@yahoo.com>
10) me, the criminal (that's why I'm moving)
by "Scott Hansen" <curth@execpc.com>
11) Argh!
by Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
12) Bahr Tales & Jams Whine Coolers
by WhoFooldU@aol.com
13) Oh, I love all of this.
by Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:37:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Ville Paukkonen <ville@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Re: Be-de-be-de-be-de...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980609003037.757A-100000@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>
On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 Thomas Forcier wrote:
> On that note, I am selling Lords of Sound for $60, KAI is selling it for
> $50. Buy it from him, I owe him more than one.
..and just for the record, Kiss the Stone is selling it for $34.
--- ,------------------------.
Ville Paukkonen (ville@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk) | "Ah, Bowakawa Pousse |
Undergraduate in Mathematics and Computation | Pousse" (John Lennon) |
JCR, Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford OX2 6QA `------------------------'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 20:55:15 -0300
From: Elizandro Max Borba <elimax@aton.inf.ufrgs.br>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: DT Tablature books
Message-ID: <357C79E2.4BF70FAB@aton.inf.ufrgs.br>
Once i've seen Charlie Patel's mail asking for DT tablature books,
I would like if someone can tell me how to order them.
I AM a subscriber of YtseJam, and can't find it anywhere.
Please HELP!!!
And thanx...
Elizandro Max Borba
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:24:37 PDT
From: "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: advertisement in a local paper
Message-ID: <19980609002437.16196.qmail@hotmail.com>
there's this paper in the Detroit area called the Metro Times, a free
rag with a few in-house writers, ads from all the clubs showing who's
playing there when, personals, etc.....the kind of thing you can find in
any big city, I'd assume, I use it to find out about all the concerts
and events I'd go and see if I had any money....
anyway, the following ad was spooted by yours truly in said publication
from last week......
Drum Lessons
Learn the styles of : Grohl, Cameron, Pert, Bonham,
Portnoy and Others. Teaching all student levels
beginning to advanced basic, odd times, rudiments, technique
and then the name and number which you don't need to see.....
thought it was cool, thought I'd share, thought I'd ask, "Who's Cameron?
the guy from Ferris Bueller?", and thought I should point out the
spelling error was found in the ad, rather than by any fault of my
own......and if you don't know what I'm talking about in that previos
line, go ask geddy....
partha
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:40:14 EDT
From: Thrak75@aol.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: music that kicks ass- zap mama
Message-ID: <aaa502b9.357c846f@aol.com>
..........anyone else ever heard of them?
definitely not progressive. found them in the african section. bjork on a
dinner date with paul simon, with tori amos beating off in the closet next to
dean bowman of the screaming headless torsos? discovered them one night
watching "sessions at west 54th" on pbs really late on friday night.
absolutely fascinating stuff.
wild koba
anyone here going to a) allman bros. show at jones beach, b) tori at msg, c)
dp/elp/dt @ jones beach?
***********************************************************************
david y. kobayashi
new york law school
thrak75@aol.com
"throw off those chains of reason and your prison disappears." n. peart
***********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:20:55 -0400
From: Kevin Madden <kwmadden@pipeline.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Flotsam and Jetsam (NDTC/NMBC)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980609012055.00696678@pop.pipeline.com>
All of the titles someone mentioned as being under Flotsam and
Jetsam at the cdnow site are not the heavy metal band, as far
as I know. I believe their only releases are Doomsday for the
Deceiver, No Place for Disgrace, When the Storm Comes Down, Cuatro,
Drift, and High.
CD of the Day: King's X - Acoustic Spirits (oops, MBC!)
Kevin Madden <kwmadden@pipeline.com>
Detroit Red Wings 1996-97, 1997-98? Stanley Cup Champions
First Round, vs. Phoenix Coyotes : Detroit Wins 4-2
Second Round, vs. St. Louis Blues : Detroit Wins 4-2
Third Round, vs. Dallas Stars : Detroit Wins 4-2
Fourth Round, vs. Washington Capitals : Game One Tuesday
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:26:24 -0400 (CLT)
From: "Miguel Farah F." <miguel@webhost.cl>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3970
Message-ID: <199806090126.VAA26875@antonia.webhost.cl>
>
>Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:03:44 GMT
>From: almar@freemail.nl
>To: ytsejam@ax.com
>Subject: Portnoy = Satan?
>Message-ID: <199806081403.OAA15794@freesrv2.freemail.nl>
>
>
>>
>> An interesting piece of information about Mr. Portnoy. After an extensive
>> investigation I found an interesting source about 420 and it's significance
>> surrounding Mr. Portnoy a.k.a. Satan. This is fearful reading, so anyone
>> with small children are asked to have them leave the room.
>[...]
>
>Trying to be funny, Mr. KorgX3?
>' Well, we're not laughing!'
*I* am.
-- MIGUEL FARAH \ GCS/O d-(pu) s++:+>++: a26 C++ UL+>L++++ miguel@webhost.cl / P+ L>++ E--- W++ N+++ o+ K+++ w--(+) !O mfarah@puc.cl \ M- V-- PS+(-) PE++ Y+ PGP-(+) t++@ 5++ http://www.webhost.cl/~miguel / X- R tv(+) b+ DI+ D++ G++++ e+(*) h!>++ #include <disclaimer.h> \ r-- y? <*> "Trust me - I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:34:00 -0700 From: "Alex Smith" <bacchus@azstarnet.com> To: "YTSEJAM" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: calm down Message-ID: <01bd934f$0f53ede0$0b1ec5a9@Starnet.azstarnet.com>
man, in three days this list has turned into a complete bootleg flame-fest! calm down people, and let's have some real discussions. i don't think people are going to change their opinions that easily.... as they say, "whatever floats your boat."
chao, Alex Smith bacchus@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~bacchus/rush/ "Sometimes a view from sinless eyes Centers our perspective And pacifies our cries Sometimes the anguish we survive And the mysteries we nurture Are the fabrics of our lives." -Dream Theater ------------------------------------- "So many things I think about When I look far away Things I know - Things I wonder Things I'd like to say The more we think we know about The greater the unknown We suspend our disbelief And we are not alone." -Rush ------------------------------------- "I will wear your white feather I will carry your white flag I will swear I have no nation But I'm proud to own my heart." -Marillion (Fish)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:45:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com (Ytsejam Mailing List) Subject: as long as everyone else is... Message-ID: <199806090245.WAA04394@ruby.cs.brandeis.edu>
Well, can get a $10 discount from my web page from CDNow as well, www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb or www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb/dt.html for links. Also, my guess for account info is that it is based on the following: Name, address, credit card number (name on card, more importantly) and probalby billing address... so, if you have multiple credit cards w/ multiple billing addresses, you should be set to open up multiple accounts.
Also, as for Savatage, my recommendations are Dead Winter Dead and Wake of Magellan... those are their 2 most progressive works...
-- +------------------------------------------+-----------------------+ | A daily dose of eMpTyV | Dream Theater | | will flush you mind right down the drain | Falling Into Infinity | | --- taken from: Just Let Me Breathe --- | In Stores NOW!! | +------------------------------------------+-----------------------+ Michael Burstin: mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu Oh my God, they've killed Kenny!! http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb/ Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email: http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:46:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Kruger <joekruger@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Irony Message-ID: <19980608184654.9688.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com>
Dedicated to Simon Wilkins <s.wilkins@rocketmail.com> and almar@freemail.nl
Irony (You Not Me parody) Reading from you is driving me batty Watching you post is making me catty You're trying to make a place in the jam Telling me lies and sending me spam Missing the jokes to try to confound me You are so dumb, you really astound me
That's alright that's okay You're dumber every single day You are so lame But I've got time
It's all about irony It's all about the things That we expect from a newbie There's never time to explain And we're expecting you to have a brain
It's all about irony It's all about irony
You really are as thick as a brick Reading your posts is making me sick You post what you want We're not moderated You're missing the point Your humor is faded I say you gotta think before you respond to The posts that appear to really dumbfound you.
It's all about irony It's all about the things That we expect from a newbie There's never time to explain And we're expecting you to have a brain
It's all about irony It's all about irony
That's alright that's okay You're dumber every single day You are so lame But I've got time
It's all about irony It's all about the things That we expect from a newbie There's never time to explain And we're expecting you to have a brain
It's all about irony It's all about irony It's all about irony
Don't anybody call me Desmond Jr. :-) ==
Joe Kruger joekruger@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:22:08 -0500 From: "Scott Hansen" <curth@execpc.com> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: me, the criminal (that's why I'm moving) Message-ID: <199806090320.WAA07181@mailgw02.execpc.com>
Partha posted: > about Scott Hansen: watching news yesterday on a Toledo, Ohio station, > and apparently he got picked up by the FBI on suspicions of being a bank > robber.....maybe he's trying to get ahold of Mike Bahr to arrange for > bail money........
Heh heh - well, I guess the truth comes out - I must admit - that wasn't me that got busted! See, I *knew* that this was gonna happen so D-Man, Madsman and Bogie helped me lure Bafu into this trap (we left out a whole buncha CDR bootlegs). So in all reality, it really is Bafu who got busted (although originally we were gonna frame ~Eckie, but Pat Daugherty and Al Balkiewicz talked us out of it). Now those of you who knew I was moving to San Diego know why. Oh wait...I shouldn't have mentioned *where* I was moving to. Damn! Shhh!!! Don't tell anyone - I don't need the FBI greeting me on the west coast (heh - unless it's Scully)! :) I can see it now...I'll be on the next episode of "America's Stupidest Criminals"! Anyhoo, rumor had it tho that Bafu was trying to talk Dr. Mosh and Mattymo into springing the bail money for him, but I heard Skadz told them not to...apparently he threatened to ban them from the 'Jam forever - said it had something to do with the whole AlternicA thread (or was it the thread about Blind Melon? or Graham from down under slamming everyone? or Scotchman's Ytsedrink game? or just what is prog rock? or whether Fish or Hogarth is better? or how many things are in Awake's cover? or the debate over YNM and YoM? or about Nine Inch Nails? or bootlegs? or how eMpTy V sucks? or religion? or James' haircut? or Derek being gay? or if balls 'n' chunk is really where it's at?) I dunno.
Well, kiddies it's been fun! It is true that I'm moving to San Diego and unfortunately I will *NOT* have 'Net access for a while, so I wanted to say goodbye to everyone! *sob* :) Hanging out with everyone, especially at the Milwaukee, Madison and Chicago TII showz was a blast. Take care, everyone and for any who want to keep in touch, email me and I'll send you my new mailing address (heh heh - just don't give it to the FBI) - I'll still be on the 'Net until June 15th. Charles Colletti, if by chance you are reading this, please email me - and for that matter, any other 'Jammerz in the south west corner of the US. D-Man and Bogie, please also email me in regards to the setlist project. Take care everyone and have fun!
Buh bye Scott "the bank robbing weasel" Hansen curth@execpc.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:29:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Argh! Message-ID: <199806090329.WAA00594@enteract.com>
> From: "Andrew" <thomas.o.forcier*no-spam*@worldnet.att.net> > Subject: I've had about enough...
> I have been posting a message of late that deals with my desire to > unload bootlegs at a fixed price. Though I've been steadily selling > them, I've come to notice that this is not considered a service to fans > any more.
It never should be considered a service. It's a sale. You're not performing any work, or making any sacrifice. You're not giving these away out of the kindness of your heart. There's nothing wrong with selling off your stuff, but crack open a can of "Reality Juice." You're selling your boots to fatten up your wallet (or to pick up a new axe). If someone wants to undercut you and help a fan get a disc for cheaper, what right do you have to complain? If you were the fan, you'd be grateful.
> But keep this in mind. There were DT fans four and five years ago who > spent good chunks of money to buy discs they were assured, with good > reason, would be collectible. After all, if a distrubutor says only 150 > will be made, and there are thousands of DT fans, then they ought to be > collectible, right? WRONG.
I bought "error" baseball cards (I even had the "Fuckface" Billy Ripkin) thinking they would be collectibles (I was really young. :) as well as Valient comics (well, I bought em for the stories, and kept em even when they were at an enflated value). Just because the market value goes down doesn't mean anyone is wronging you. What did you think would happen? The cd would continue to be a difficult media to create? With the CDRs available, most jammers can now get what they want -- THE MUSIC -- for a much lower price. Most jammers would sacrifice the liners for the price.
> These "distributors" two years down the road realize that now that their > operation is a BUSINESS and not a service to fans begin to reproduce those > CDs and allow others to do so as well.
This is bullshit. Yeah, it's business. And what you're doing is "Small Business" then. You can only deal with market conditions.
> to come by ones like Subconscious. Even then, you could still find an > original that would sell for $100 or more by auction. But now that's not > the case.
There have been recent $100 sales of Subconscious. I think Mike Bahr would agree.
> Now the bootlegs that I bought for $25 and should be able to sell > at least at those costs (plus shipping), are difficult to sell to fans.
Why should they be worth at least $25? Depending on the boot, some were not worth that in the first place. And what about the CDRs YOU are trying to sell? Did YOU pay $30 for them? A COPY of a bood does not appreciate in value, does it? You're just as much a businessman as anyone else.
> Why? Because businessmen, claiming to be fans, are knocking the discs > off on their burners. Make no mistake: if his reason is to make an > income off the production and distribution of CDs, he's a BUSINESSMAN, > whether he's in college or selling "environmental products" full time.
This is a point I've stated time and time again. However, what you're pissed about is people selling for less than you. You deal with it. The fans only benefit from that. Offer a scenerio in which they don't. Anyone who buys a boot CDR from someone else knows DAMN well that he or she can turn around and sell CDRs of that same boot, and that he or she may see a better price a week down the line.
> I am a collector.
A collector collects. You're selling.
> I had nothing to do with making these discs. I > was a DT fan who wanted to hear all of their music and was willing to > pay a premium to do so. Now it seems the fans that were there from the > beginning are getting screwed for paying that premium.
You're getting screwed because you made a foolish decision to treat a bootleg as equity. And don't say I've missed the point. You laid down the line when you admitted you were selling them to buy a new guitar (which I really think is great.) You're bullshitting us if you try to make this anything else but "I want my money." The market has been flooded with people who can clone what you're selling for less than you sell for. I think that is awesome, because I don't believe that boots should be a commodity. But even if you don't think it's great, I don't see how you can possibly think it's a bad thing... you're going to want to pay $20 less on a boot rather than $20 more some day. It will be a wonderful thing in your eyes then too. Buy music as an aesthetic investment, not a financial one. You won't have to worry about this shit again.
> And the worst part? It used to be a challenge to find a good boot, > and a joyous event to purchase one or just TRADE to get one. Now the > "fans" don't trade tapes, they burn CDs... You'll never know what this > music meant to the generation of fans before you.
Now the "fans" trade CDs and have a more convenient form for their music. Since it's so cheap, you're right, they'll never know what a pain in the ass it used to be. The MUSIC, however, means just as much, but to more people. Keep em coming!
> From: "Alex Smith" <bacchus@azstarnet.com>
You must be flogged for excessive .sig length!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:55:21 EDT From: WhoFooldU@aol.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Bahr Tales & Jams Whine Coolers Message-ID: <93cf005f.357cb230@aol.com>
If this bootleg thread is going to continue can you at least somehow put the positive spin on it? Like what are the best boots and or Tapes that are being traded in various circles. I'm sure several of us have at least a favorite performance that has not been issued by OFB's record label.
For example, The best thing IMHO that has come out officially is "To Live Forever" plus the extended guitar solo from the Live in Tokyo video. Favorite Boot is still Lost in the Sky.
I would mention a tape, but I don't have one. Never got into it... I know my loss.
Just some more thoughts.
Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:31:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Oh, I love all of this. Message-ID: <199806090431.XAA17412@enteract.com>
> From: "KorgX3" <korgx3@safelink.net> > Subject: The Truth about 420
KorgX3 - The Next Bafu Vai. Great work. :)
> From: Uroborosss@aol.com > Subject: Courtesy & Other Thoughts
Blisteringly good. An enthusiastic 2 gonads up. - The Madsman
> From: Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu> > Subject: Gentle Giant/Collectibility decline
> As for 420, it is Mike's birthday. Done. End of discussion. Bring it up > again and I will send Ptacek to get medieval on your ass. : )
Grrrrrr! Do I intimidate yet? Grrr Grrr! /me makes a mean face > that those days are drawing to a close. With CD-R technology as affordable > as it is today, there are a lot of people that dont own originals, dont > seek the originals out, and dont care to. I think that is a shame.
Why is it a shame, when the quality of the originals and the quality of the copy are exactly the same?
> No one cares about collectibility anymore. I bought some extra copies of > some of the early Bahr boots, and Ive been hanging on to them because I > wanted to be able to supply "rare" and "hard to find" Bahr boots when they > were in demand later on. My intention was only ever to offer the boots for > what the market demanded, but now those plans are pretty much shot.
ROFLMAO! Your INTENTION, in other words, was to turn a profit later on when the values were up. But not unlike me with my 1989 Donruss Baseball cards, and my Magnus Robotfighter #1, you held out too long and ain't gonna get dick. That's life. It's not a shame, and it's not unfair. You're playing a market here, and you have to expect this kind of thing. Get it out of your head that you offer a service by getting extra discs. If there's a limited print run, you offer a disservice by purchasing multiples. Even if it's an unlimited run, you're still not helping anyone but yourself when you auction shit off. The people who spend $100 on a used cd get what they deserve. Hopefully they're satisfied. Probably they're not. Either way, I could care less. I don't want to help anyone make money off DT, unless they're contractually involved with DT... so I welcome the flooding of the boot market. And the flood will not recede... it can only get worse, because like me, most people would prefer to get the product (the MUSIC, not the art and liners) for $5 instead of $30. If I want visual art, I'll paint or buy a painting. I buy cds for audio.
> is hardly anyone left that really gives a hoot about owning an "original," > so getting any more than the $25 I paid for them will be impossible pretty > soon. I think that sucks, and not because I cant turn a profit, but > because noone will feel the pride I once felt of owning a collectible.
I'm sorry. I TOTALLY respect you and Forcier, but I think this is such a load of bullshit... it's laughable. > I often hear "Its all about the music, fuck whether it is original or not." > To that I say BS. If you said to a baseball collector "Its all about > seeing Mantle's picture and reading his stats, not about owning the actual > card," that person would laugh in your face. Because originality and > rarity is important to a collector. When I opened the case to my AD and > saw the glimmering silver pen on the CD, that meant something to me. There > are only 500 originals out there, and I still feel priviliged to have been > around long enough to have ordered and received one when they were first > released. It is a real shame that people these days cant feel that same > inner satisfaction Ive felt about my collection.
You're comparing apples and oranges. By your logic, I should grieve the loss of my first I&W cd, because the one I bought to replace it isn't the same print run. Boots were never about the print runs or the art. They have ALWAUS been about the music. They didn't always come with packaging and art. A collector cares about having the boots, not having the art. If you collect DT cover art, then you need the originals. If you collect DT music, you only need the music. Fuck the inner satisfaction of knowing "if I want to sell this, I can make my money back." That's the wrong fucking attitude. > From: Michael Bahr <durnik@ANTISPAMgoodnet.com> > Subject: "Limited Editions"
Agreed.
> From: Graham Boyle <icarus@sydney.net> > Subject: Re: "Limited Editions"
> It is wrong just cos YOU say so, is it ? So you think it's better for fans to have to pay an inflated price for a cd boot than get it for the dirt they should? Cast Bahr's intentions aside... if you really believed that, you wouldn't have ever dubbed a cd bood, Gaz. It's not about OAN records... the issue is about boot availability. At least Bahr, who only loses, financially from boots becoming more widely available prefers that boots be available in whatever form, to whoever wants them. That way, if you need an original, you can get one, and if you don't, you can get the "next to free" boots that I think rule.
> You obviously are jealous and 'frown' upon someone who can > deliver the goods far better than you ever can.
That, or he's just being honest.
> almost daily reviews of OAN Records, when was the last time > someone wrote a review of a Prism boot say, 'SoC' ? Why would this be an issue for Bahr? He sells completely different boots than the ones that OAN sells. They may pressure him to follow through on his promises, but their good press doesn't mean bad press for Mike. Collectors will still want his originals as well as those from OAN. OAN may hurt Prism's business, in that the $20 Bahr might have taken in goes elsewhere now and then, but everyone knew that day would come... and most boot buyers have more than just $20 these days anyways This is not a Bahr defense... just a clarification, in hopes of preventing a flame war.
- Chris
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3972 **************************
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