YTSEJAM Digest 3848
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Yes, Vito Bratta, Lisa Marie's identity crisis
by Lisa Marie <ytsegirl@pacbell.net>
2) Re: Theory 2
by KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
3) Iced Earth show this Saturday near Chicago
by Robert Taylor <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
4) Heavy prog metal
by Robert Taylor <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
5) Re: De Plane!
by KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
6) Apology
by someone@enteract.com
7) Re: Lie Single
by KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
8) Mike Portnoy on LTE and DT
by "Heavy Metal at The Mining Company" <heavymetal.guide@miningco.com>
9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3847
by ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones)
10) Empty Tremors
by "Juan Fco. Quintero" <jfquintero@sysop.com.mx>
11) Hope
by someone@enteract.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:55:32 -0700
From: Lisa Marie <ytsegirl@pacbell.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Yes, Vito Bratta, Lisa Marie's identity crisis
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980506085347.0076a6b8@postoffice.pacbell.net>
At 06:24 AM 5/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Jon Parmet <ytsegirl@pacbell.net>
>
>Okay, I'm officially confused now. (No, Lisa Marie, we're not gonna let
>you forget this). :)
I wouldn't expect any less from you guys... I love you all, really. :oP
Okay, time to fess up... here's the real story:
Jon Parmet does not exist. He's someone I made up so I could post long
rambling observations, and not be slammed for simply being a girl.
For your reference: all of the intelligent, thought provoking posts
by "Mr. Jon Parmet" were actually made by me... all of the idiotic,
meaningless, "what the hell is he smoking" kind of posts by Jon were
actually made by Carol Dellinger.
Obviously most of them were made by Carol.
;o)
Lisa Marie (ducking and running)
ytsegirl@pacbell.net
http://home.pacbell.net/ytsegirl
_____________________________________
THOUGHTS - Spock's Beard Mailing List
http://www.dreamt.org/spocksbeard
_____________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:06:46 EDT
From: KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Theory 2
Message-ID: <48a5485b.35508a97@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-05 14:38:57 EDT, you write:
<< > Musicians don't have to be university trained either, but they do
> need to know their shit, you mention Vai, Petrucci, and Portnoy, as
> musicians who never graduated, that's true, but I'm sure they still
> know and respect the idea of music theory.
What about those who don't know their shit, but are respected by
everyone as master musicians? I bet you YOU even admire some
musicians who don't know JACK SHIT. Wouldn't THAT make you a
hypocrite! Well, we'll just forget to pursue that thread, since I
really have no gripe with you, and no reason to attack you on a
personal level.
>You say that music came before rules,
> well, that may be true, if you're talking about ancient tribal
> music, but, Western music as it has become is based around certain
> tonal principles that should never be forgotten,
Who dictates "should" and "shouldn't" within the confines of art?
You impose laughable limitations upon music, which, had they been
observed and adhered to, would have prevented music from EVER reaching
beyond the church modes and tribal music of individual ethnicities.
There would be no odd time signatures. There would never have been
orchestras. There would be no *gasp* guitar! Shred wouldn't be
dead... it'd be unborn! Oh the horror!
One of my favorite counter examples to your proposed rule of music
above is Arnold Schoenberg, the early 20th century composer. He
developed an alternate system of tonality called Dodecaphony or 12
tone serialism. Within this system, the composer creates a
hypothetical rhythmic scheme, and then takes all twelve western tones
and arranges them into a tone row, (which, by nature is almost always
atonal) without repeating any one note until every other note has been
played. He wrote orchestral music in this style, and inspired
enumerous composers to venture into realms of atonality. Two
favorites of this list who now implement this massive and disturbingly
cool concept are Michael Romeo and Ron Thal (who introduced me to the
concept of Dodecaphony when I asked "how did you come up with that
sick solo line!?").
> and someone who wants to
> learn about music needs to learn these principles before thinking
> they are any kind of "musician"
I've already offered my reasons why I believe this statement is
dangerously false You would exterminate half of all the prog
rockers, shredders, jazz musicians, classical composers, etc whom
you've ever heard.
> Sorry for my ramblings, but I get really peeved at the idea that
> music should be just some thrown together mess,
What about the absence of theory knowledge implies that the product
of such a musician's labor would be a "mess"?
> that's why I'm into more
> progressive metal and jazz, because most of them know what they're
> doing,
That's why you're an elitist, because you seem to put the music you
favor on some kind of higher level than other forms of music. Music
as art, is expression. If something is best expressed with a
distorted scream over a simple rhythm in 4/4, what makes that any less
artistic or musical than something expressed best with a flurry of
16th note triplets over a complex progression with several key
changes? I'd contend that each are equally musically viable, and each
is equally artistic.
Further, art is expression for the artist, to be sure, but what is it
to the viewer, listener, experiencer, etc? It's Entertainment. It
may be deep and profound, but at some level, it is entertainment.
Whether you rap well, or shred well, or compose well, you're an
entertainer.
> if you want no rules, or think that "anything goes," then go pick up
> the latest #1 CD or some other shit that some popular band comes out
> with.
At what point does popular become a criterion for judging the
relevance of a musical form? If DT sold a million copies of FII,
would they be less musical? Foo Fighters are selling well. Are they
amusical? The ABSOLUTELY have a great grasp of melody and harmony,
and I certainly detect rhythm. There are times at which I would
definitely listen to Foo Fighters over Metropolis or Giant Steps...
and look at me... I'm a guitarist of almost 10 years, studying jazz
theory and aspiring to become the best artist and entertainer I can
be.
> There's some simplicity for you, where the guys think they can
> pluck anything that "feels good"
And I conclude on this: Never pluck anything that doesn't feel good.
:)
Go Home and Practice!
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman >>
Sorry to repost this whole thing, but I had to so that I could say the
following:
Chris, you bore me.
;~)
Speak up, I can't hear you.
Kez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:09:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Taylor <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Iced Earth show this Saturday near Chicago
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980506110417.2947A-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
FOR ANY ICED EARTH FANS IN THE CHICAGO AREA:
It turns out Iced Earth is playing a last minute show this Saturday at JJ
Kelly's in Lansing, IL. Lansing is south of Chicago. I'm not sure
where JJ Kelly's is, though. Also, it's a 21-and-over thing, so that
excludes some people too. I won't be able to go because I am not 21 yet
(still one more year to go), but I figured there has to be a few people
here who are interested. So go show your support!!!
Robert Taylor
rctaylor@uiuc.edu
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~rctaylor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:19:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Taylor <rctaylor@students.uiuc.edu>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Heavy prog metal
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980506111046.2947B-100000@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
To the guy looking for some heavy prog metal a few days ago (I deleted the
original post):
One band that I just found out about that fits the bill is
Magnitude 9. The remind me of a great blend of Symphony X, Dream Theater,
and Fates Warning without sounding like a clone of any of them. They have
plenty of crunch in there (I'd probably put them at the heaviness level of
Symphony X). There web site is http://members.aol.com/magtude9/ (if I
remember correctly). So anyone interested in this new band, check out the
site. The vocalist is Corey Brown from Psycho Drama and the bassist is
Kevin Chown from Artension. Both bands are still together, though. This
is a project to keep all the band members busy in their off time.
Robert Taylor
rctaylor@uiuc.edu
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~rctaylor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:20:13 EDT
From: KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: De Plane!
Message-ID: <68216bdf.35508dbe@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-05 19:29:47 EDT, someone wrote:
<< Wow! Is it the whole song, or did you wimp out and just get the
opening riff? >>
I was going to ask if it was digest or ack mode.
<<Seriously though, it should be cakewalk. Just get there early or
stay late. You're gonna bump into em.>>
This is the truth. I did it. All the rumours about them being the nicest
guys in the world are true.
Chris, thanks again for the advice. Worked like a charm.
I still can't hear.
Kez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:59:46 +0000
From: someone@enteract.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Apology
Message-ID: <199805061655.LAA27283@wheat.farm.niu.edu>
On a wholely different note, I apologize to Adam Cook for going off
on you in my last post. I could have said what I needed to say
without stooping to that level, and I realize that you may not have
been attempting to insult me, and I may have been wrong in my
interpretation. In any case, there's no need for me to attack you,
since we've always been cool in the past, and I do respect you.
Go Home and Practice!
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:56:07 EDT
From: KEZCOM <KEZCOM@aol.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Lie Single
Message-ID: <71a58ea.35509628@aol.com>
In a message dated 98-05-06 04:51:38 EDT, you write:
<< I tried to order the Lie single from Vinyl Tap but they said they had
sold out
but would put me on the waiting list for it. I'm not holding my breath. >>
I got the exact same response, but I AM holding my breath, and boy am I
lightheaded.
Did someone on the'Jam snag this up, and isn't telling? C'mon, spill the
beans.
If anyone owns the Lie single, and would like to part with it, please e-mail
me.
Ears still ringing,
Kez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:14:00 -0400
From: "Heavy Metal at The Mining Company" <heavymetal.guide@miningco.com>
To: <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Mike Portnoy on LTE and DT
Message-ID: <024d01bd7912$5d695bc0$afc229cf@default>
Hi All-
I will be doing an interview with Mike next Monday mainly to discuss Liquid
Tension Experiment, but also current DT happenings. If anyone has questions
to suggest, please feel free to do so by e-mail. I'll do my best to work
them in.
Matt
Heavy Metal at The Mining Co.
http://heavymetal.miningco.com
heavymetal.guide@miningco.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:03:18 -0400
From: ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones)
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3847
Message-ID: <199805061703.NAA18980@psf220.pclprod.meaddata.com>
Sorry but when you hear David Gilmore or any musician play music,
whether the musician has a technical knowledge or not, you are hearing
music theory.
Gilmore's music complies with the rules of music theory. That's why you
like it. I think what you are really talking about is the difference
between a guitarist is technical vs. one that is into "feel".
Many musicians see the "technical" vs. "feel" argument to be an either
or argument.
I contend that a musician can be both.
Why can't a musician know music theory and play with feel? What would
prevent him/her?
Read my article on this for a deeper insight.
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/palladium/6197/intro.htm
Music theory will enhance anyone's playing no matter what the genre or
goal of the musician.
Greg
5 days from seeing DT in Cincinatti!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Theory Theory..yadda...
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.980506100541.7681B-100000@thunder>
My personal oppinion is that music theory IS interesting.. but MAY get in
the way of true art... It may polute the true emotion running out of the
musicians/artists head. Many of my favourite artists were those who knew
no musical theory, but had feelings and emotions to convey, and did that.
Yes, knowing HOW to play an instrument is a DEFINITE bonus since it will
make life easier on the artist. One of my favourite examples is
listening to David Gilmour guitar solos.. I dont hear theory.. i FEEL his
emotions directly communicating through his guitar. Nothing technical,
nothing intricate. There is something magical about that.
Also, if everyone stck to theory.. the realm of music would stagnate. It
is those with the new sounds that survive and expand musical boundaries.
And besides.. all art should exist. If someone wants to communicate -
there is nothing wrong with it. If no one listens.. then i guess.. welll.
no one listens :). I think the only thing in the music industry which is
bullshit.. which deserves to be bashed - which is evil and WRONG and
SUCKS, is the INDUSTRY itself! All the bastard critics shoving their
ideas down our throats, all the music stations and record lables who force
feed us what they feel should be the popular music.. they are the ones who
SUCK.. not the musicians themselves.
Though.. I really dont enhjoy most of today's music... I bless the jam for
introducing me to loads fo music that I do enjoy :)
-Ponte
DT in 33.5 hours!!!!!!!!!
YIPPY!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:12:09 -0600
From: "Juan Fco. Quintero" <jfquintero@sysop.com.mx>
To: "ytsejam@ax.com" <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Empty Tremors
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980506121207.0069fa28@sysop.com.mx>
Hi!
Yesterday I got my Empty Tremors CD from The Laser's Edge. After listening
to it very carefully I wouldn't say it is a clone of DT's I&W. There are
some elements of DT but not in all the music. Nevertheless, it is a good
CD. Thanks to Arash Ashouriha for recommending this CD
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:25:05 +0000
From: someone@enteract.com
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Hope
Message-ID: <199805061720.MAA27973@wheat.farm.niu.edu>
> From: Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net>
> Well, after the many attacks on ME, you present yourself as pretty
> much a hypocrite.
The only thing I called you is "elitist" on the grounds of the
statements you made. That's not an attack. That's a description of a
problem I have with your reasoning.
> Let me say this, I don't need you to lecture me on jazz, I've grown
> up my whole life listening to jazz, I know, I'm sure, quite a bit
> more about that subject than you do.
I'm sure you're not impressing anyone. Seriously now. I'm not
trying to tell you anything about jazz. I'm establishing something I
have been taught by people who have spent more time, and likely
established much higher degrees (in the scholarly sense) than you have
in the field of jazz. If you have your doctorate and want to disagree
with my professors on the grounds that you grew up on jazz, then go
for it. If you think I care how long you've been on this planet or
any other, you're wrong.
> You don't REINVENT the song, you take the song, you
> go through the melody, then you improvise around that melody
To improvise a song, in bebop jazz, you reinvent the song every time
you play it. This is why the same standard (such as All the Things
you Are, or Stella) sounds completely different when heard performed
by different musicians. I'm not saying that it can't sound similar,
or can't sound the same or whatever. I'm not saying that improv is
absolutely necessary. I am saying that in the absolute majority of
performances, a standard will sound different each time it is played,
which goes against your idea of musicians "wanting to play other
people's music" since they're making it their own.
> Yeah, I guess having standards is elitist.
Yeah, I guess I said that. (not)
> There is a difference between entertainment and music.
Agreed. But at some level ALL music and ALL art is entertainment.
Entertainment is like a blanket term to encompass many seperate
things.
> music, to paint, to write, or to speak. There is a serious problem
> with today's society not being able to just say what is good and
> what sucks.
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen evidence of this
problem. In fact, I don't watch MTV, but I have certainly caught a
glimpse or two of a show called 12 angry viewers, in which this is
ALL they do. The funny thing is, I think THIS is a problem. I think
it's a problem for someone to go off as though they are more
justified for liking their music than someone else is for liking his
or her music. These standards do not, should not, and must not hold
true for all people, other wise there would be no variety or growth
in music.
> And when you do, you're viewed as a close-minded elitist.
You're viewed as an elitist when you place your standards above
those of others. You may counter by saying that "I never said that
my standards are above anyone else's!" but in fact, when you put down
rap as a whole unit, and put down Prodigy even though they satisfy
ALL of the criterion you issued as the definition of "music" you are
doing just that.
> personally think that a close minded person is a person who refuses
> to take the effort out to look for quality. The "Anything is Art"
> mentality is what continues to tear down our culture.
In what sense? And wouldn't someone who puts forth an effort to
look for quality, have to put in time to look into things that he
might normally pass up, such as ... maybe... the whole genre of Rap?
You're not putting any effort into that... you're just marking all of
rap as "not music" and moving along. Now by your own definition,
you're not only elitist, but also closed minded. Keep in mind that I
am not attacking you... I'm just following through on the logical
conclusions that your arguments pose. If you get hurt, it's your
fault for tossing thumbtacks out in front of your path. I have not
thrown a single insult at you.
> Where is the melody in Prodigy and Coolio??? Can you take their
> music and play it on a saxophone for instance???
Yes. You can. I can do it on guitar. Do you need a special
demonstration, or are you willing to open your ears and just listen to
the music, without disqualifying it beforehand?
> Where is the harmonic complexity of it??
I didn't see anything in your definition about things having to be
harmonically complex. The Beatles lack harmonic complexity. Are
they music?
> (and I never said that I think it's the final word, you never even
> try to give any of your own definitions, you only attack mine)
I accepted your definition for the sake of argument. If I merely
offered an opposing definition, it would all boil down to "I'm right,
you're wrong, because your definition sucks." I'm using your
definition because that should be all anyone needs to show you the
faults in your argument.
> What is Coolio, and most rapper's claim to
> fame??? Taking other people's hits, ripping off their background,
> and rapping over it. You're saying that that's being a musician???
Yup. And even that is only a tiny minority of the rap music I've
heard, which is limited in scope as it is.
> I agree about Style, it can't be argued, and if you read the rest of
> my message, you would have realized that.
Come now. I not only read your entire message, I pretty much QUOTED
the whole damn thing.
> When you play a melodic or improvised line, you need to have it
> match the chords in the background, which is all theory.
You need? Okay... you "need" to have it match in exactly the way
you WANT it to match. If you're taking a sight reading exam, or
you're in any other situation where you are playing someone else's
music note for note, then yes, there is something at stake having to
do with playing the notes in a certain order. But in creating music,
you have no "need" do do anything in any way.
Furthermore, it's not all theory. It can be all "ear." It can be
all "mood." Think of music, just for a second, as the Vic Theater in
Chicago. You can get there by means of 3 different expressways, or
any of several hundred side street routes. There are multiple means
to the same ends. Don't discount that! (And yes, you ARE
discounting that, when you say "it's all theory.")
> Give me some specific examples...you can't exactly do that can
> you???
Sure I can. Miles Davis and Coltrane, among others did not approach
theory in the sense that you're bringing it up. They developed their
theory off of practice. They sat down and played for hours on end,
playing everything that they could over a single chord, or tone. They
didn't then approach music as "this scale works over this chord
because it has a natural 3 and a minor 7." They expounded on common
progressions (VI II V I, etc) and found which things work over which
by ear, and learned to make what they hear in their heads match what
they hear with their ears.
The example of someone not being able to play an Eb Phrygian scale
came directly from Professor Fareed Haque, whom I will just blindly
accept as more informed than you, by nature of his position at NIU.
> They all knew Theory. They knew their instruments, knew chordal
> structures, so you can take what you said there and shove it till
> you give me some more concrete names or something.
They didn't apply theory. They applied what they learned by ear, in
most cases, just like I may apply a harmonic slide into a guitar solo,
even though the majority of the harmonics statistically may fall
outside of the key I play in, because I learned by ear that it still
sounds good to me.
> I don't put my opinion above all others, just as I don't put mine as
> a "Better" opinion as yours, although you seem to think yourself as
> being better than me because you're so "open-minded."
No. First off, IF you don't put your opinion above others or call
it "better" than others, then you have misrepresented yourself in the
last post or two by EXACTLY putting your opinion above others. Second,
I do not think of myself as better than ANY human being for ANY
reason, but I do think I have reason and right to attack a poor
argument, so as to eliminate problems. If we're to accept what
you're saying at all, we have to agree that rap is not music, that
jazz is all theory, that prodigy is entertainment, not music, that
you can't write music without theory knowledge and any number of
other incommensurables.
Art will ALWAYS be and always has been different things to different
people. That has no negative societal implications as you insist.
The negativity is only present when one person insists that his
opinion is not just his opinion, but is the "right standard" by which
to judge art.
> As I said before, I don't expect ANYONE to
> agree with me, since most people have the same opinion as yours,
> that anything is musical art, and should be recoginzed as that,
> instead of having standards and trying to bring up the better
> aspects of music. I'd rather be elitist than be like you.
That is a cheap shot. And it's glaringly non sequitur. You won't
find a member of this list who does not have standards to what they
like. It does not follow that because one does not insist that his
opinion of what is "good music' must hold true for everyone, that he
doesn't have standards. And "better aspects of music" is yet ANOTHER
portion of your problem. To be "better" there must be an objective
standard to music. For such a standard to be dictated by YOUR
opinions and not fall in line with everyone else's understandings
further establishes you as an elitist. Just think about it.
Go Home and Practice!
Chris Ptacek
someone@prognosis.com
http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 3848
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