YTSEJAM Digest 3850
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Irving Plaza, Revisited
by Xanadu Records <rsch1@idt.net>
2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3849
by ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones)
3) re: Lisa Marie's identity crisis
by Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net>
4) Re: SB/VinylTap/NDTC
by Beyond the Mirror <mail@beyondthemirror.com>
5) oy
by "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net>
6) DT Firsts
by "Nowik, George" <NowikG@data-io.com>
7) Wow... Cincinatti Show is This Weekend.. Who wants to Meet Beforehand ?
by Matt Evans <bmajik@abeln621a.unl.edu>
8) re: Lisa Marie's identity crisis
by Lisa Marie <ytsegirl@pacbell.net>
9) Theory Rears Its Ugly Head
by Uroborosss <Uroborosss@aol.com>
10) Re: House of Blues - Monday May 18th
by drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh)
11) Re: Music Theory, Technique, and the blend thereof
by Al Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:26:44 -0700
From: Xanadu Records <rsch1@idt.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: Irving Plaza, Revisited
Message-ID: <3550E3A4.716E@idt.net>
> Does anyone know if Irving Plaza is really sold out? My friend wanted to
> come....
>
> Erica
Well, my friend who was in charge of getting our tickets put it off until
yesterday, and was told it was sold out by TicketBastard. When she
called the Irving Plaza Box Office, they said there were some left, and
then updated TicketBastard's info. I got them yesterday at about 12:30
in the afternoon. I'm not sure if any are left, but your best bet is to
call Irving Plaza direct. I don't have their number, but it should be in
the phonebook.
-- John DiBella President/Xanadu Records http://idt.net/~rsch1/index.html** Love is an act of blood and I'm bleeding A pool in the shape of a heart Beauty projection in the reflection always the worst when it starts **
Dream Theater
* I find it VERY difficult to worship a man who was killed by a toilet bowl... *
John DiBella referring to Elvis in a conversation with his mom regarding whos generation of Rock Stars was more worthy of praise
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:18:46 -0400 From: ujonegr@psf220.lexis-nexis.com (Greg Jones) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3849 Message-ID: <199805061918.PAA27494@psf220.pclprod.meaddata.com>
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3847 Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980506103243.4963B-100000@gladstone.uoregon.edu> On Wed, 6 May 1998, Greg Jones wrote: > >Sorry but when you hear David Gilmore or any musician play music, >whether the musician has a technical knowledge or not, you are hearing >music theory. At some level, yes, obviously. I think though, that he doesn't hear an Ab aeolian arpeggio series followed by a phrygian minor scale down 7 notes, etc. (you can tell I don't "know" theory, but I know what sounds "right" in a specific chord/key -- completely by feel). He hears Gilmour producing music with emotion because it isn't scales and such...
Gilmore may hear such a thing, he just won't know what to call it. I think the problem is your admission to not knowing much music theory. Music theory is merely a naming convention for the order that already exists in music.
One can play music which follows that order without knowing these rules because music is naturally ordered. Theory merely explains that order and gives us a language to communicate concepts. This language allows teachers to teach and students to learn. It allows players to conceptualize their own compositions and it gives a musician something to practice. > >Gilmore's music complies with the rules of music theory. That's why you >like it. I think what you are really talking about is the difference >between a guitarist is technical vs. one that is into "feel". > could be. There is no could be about it. Let's take your earlier example of "Comfortably Numb". I too love this solo by the way. I'm not sure what key it's in but I know that it's in a minor key......let's say e min. Gilmore's leads follow the e minor scale which coincide with the key. The key is merely the 7 notes which all of the chords and melodies are derived from. He may have thrown in some blues notes as well, but even these notes comply with music theory. >I contend that a musician can be both. > For example -- John Petrucci, Marty Fieldman, DeGarmo/Wilton, and more. >Why can't a musician know music theory and play with feel? What would >prevent him/her? I think you're confusing your own issue. Technicians are technicians by choice, not by default because they "know" music theory by rote. David Gilmour won't start playing Yngwie just because he audited some courses at Berklee.
I agree with this point. I'm not confusing my own issue. See my article at:
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/palladium/6197/intro.htm
Some musicians are non-technical by choice, some by limitation. Some musicians are technical by choice, others by limitation.
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:29:58 -0400 From: Pat Sullivan <psull@ici.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: re: Lisa Marie's identity crisis Message-ID: <3550BA36.21CFF774@ici.net>
> Jon Parmet does not exist. He's someone I made up so I could post long > rambling observations, and not be slammed for simply being a girl.
Umm...then I think it is my duty to tell you that there is a scumbag up here in the Boston area who is going around to kickass rock concerts and claiming to be you....uh....him.
That, or you and/or Carol are a lot older, balder, and MALEr than I have previously been led to believe.
:)
Pat Sullivan - .sigless in Stoughton
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:45:24 -0500 From: Beyond the Mirror <mail@beyondthemirror.com> To: "'YJ Digest'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: SB/VinylTap/NDTC Message-ID: <01BD78FD.A2ADCC80.mail@beyondthemirror.com>
Wow, Lisa Marie, you know your shit. One more detail to add though... There was an episode of Star Trek called "Spock's Brain" (widely considered to be the worst episode ever made, which of course makes it a classic). This probably contributed to Trevor's confusion.
Josh Becker josh@beyondthemirror.com http://www.beyondthemirror.com
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:48:43 -0400 From: "Adam Cook" <acook@tiac.net> To: <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: oy Message-ID: <199805061949.PAA12844@mailnfs0.tiac.net>
> > this way, I think a certain understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm > > (call this understanding "theory" if you wish, I don't really care) is > > necessary. > > Well, you understand the concern of the people speaking out about > this.... what you've described really isn't music theory, so to call > it such, is really a vague and misleading comment.
Yes it is. Music is harmony, melody, and rhythm. Music Theory is the study and explanations of the nature of harmony, melody, and rhythm.
> That's just because your ear is used to hearing this. By deviating > from scales, I have found that my ear often begs me to do things like > resolve the above scale to the nearest b6 below (in this case G#). I > don't think that this "begging" has anything to do with the nature of > music. I think it has to do only with what you're used to and what > you expect. Developed completely on experience.
Experience is what gives people opinions. People are experienced in listening to the major scale because it's in the foundation of Western Music. I don't care if you deviate from scales and resolve to the tritone everytime instead of the root, it's not going to change how resolution will work in music. If your music experience is built on pop, jazz, or classical, your ear will want to resolve to certain tones and you can't change that as much as you want to. This is what is objective in music. However, some people might like different types of resolution, and that is what is subjective. Leading and resolving tones transcend genres.
> That's not fair. You're basically just saying "Some people would > rather hear things that I don't like, and call it music. But people > tell me that I'm right, so I must be."
No I'm not, don't put words in my mouth. Maybe you should read what I write before you make up what I'm saying?
> You will see that music > scholors, if you do any research, have always criticized even the > greatest composers. Jazz wasn't always a respected artform either.
No it wasn't always respected artform. A great jazz critic once called Miles Davis' playing ont he classic album Kind of Blue as "sluggish". Every genre has critics, but their job is only to give their SUBJECTIVE opinion on the subject. In fact, Jazz used to be equivilant to pop music, so shouldn't that basically make everything I'm saying about pop music hypocritcal? No. Because pop music is driven by money and capitalism now. It was not in the 20's and 30's. There were no rock stars back then.
> Catchy songs are WHY YOU PLAY GUITAR, Adam. The Beatles redefined > music completely when they arrived. What are they? Theory masters?
The Beatles didn't redefine music any more than John Coltrane or Mozart or Ellington. Every artist has just built on what has come before them. The only way you could redifine music would be to build your own musical language consisting of a new non-12 tone system. But why the hell would anybody want to do that?
> If you say that Jazz is > more relevent or "better" in any objective way than pop music, you're > just ignorant of music from any perspective of its history and > continuum.
I never said that. Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that there is a certain amount of objectivity involved in music, but BECAUSE OF SUBJECTIVITY there are certain types of music I like more than others. I'm not ignoring anything. I know about all the other types of music out there and I respect it. Maybe sometime I will like it. But some of it, BECAUSE OF OBJECTIVITY, does not have the elements to be artistically viable. By your definition, a 6 year old kid banging on a toy guitar should be as equally respected as Bach, and I disagree.
ADam
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:01:41 -0800 From: "Nowik, George" <NowikG@data-io.com> To: "'ytsejam@ax.com'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: DT Firsts Message-ID: <C7EA264064ACD011BE4500805FC1DCA10168A725@SATURN.nt.data-io.com>
So the topic came about that people were expressing their first experiences with DT and how they were exposed by other enlightened saintly-types. I thought I would toss in the ironic twist-of-fate version of what got me stuck for life on the group.
Dateline - george the high school student staying up way too late on a Saturday night watching MTV and the headbangers ball praying for "My name is Mud" to be played by Primus. Suddenly I hear a guitar come in, see a barbed-wire heart beating on my screen, think it's going to be some silly hate-death-metal thing and start to pick up the book I was reading, when the song grabbed me by the happy sacks, slammed me in the face with a frying pan (remember that?), and took me for a ride that changed my direction in music forever. (Why is MP the only person who smiles at ALL in the video? (: )
Pull Me Under, on MTV, on the headbangers ball.
"Balls and chunk is where it's at." -- Mike Portnoy
It sure converted me. (: The immediate day after, I was the proud and mind-boggled owner of Images and Words. I don't think I listened to anything else for several months ... and it only got better.
Dream Theater was also the first concert I ever saw (Seattle show, Paramount Theater, Images and Words tour, terrible seats, lost my voice screaming and cheering, and had to pick up my jaw several times throughout the show). (I even got some heat for wearing the burning-barbed heart shirt for my senior class group picture in the yearbook. it was "not tasteful". it _is_ in the picture tho. quite comical. )
in the tradition of spoof lyrics, i wonder who's going to write the lyrics for "just let me breed"...
innocently faded,
-= george =-
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:08:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Evans <bmajik@abeln621a.unl.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Wow... Cincinatti Show is This Weekend.. Who wants to Meet Beforehand ? Message-ID: <199805062008.PAA02490@goliath.unl.edu>
Well It looks like Monday I'll finally get to see DT!!!!!
Me and at least 2 other DT fans from the Louisville, KY area will be heading up to Cincinatti for the show. Im wondering what other YTSEJAMmers will be at the Cinci show, and if anyone wants to try and hang out either before or after the show.....
if so, drop me an email at bmajik@ntr.net
can't wait until monday, Matt
*********************************************************** * Matt Evans * * University of Nebraska, Lincoln work: bmajik@ntr.net * * Computer Engineering Major school: mevans@cse.unl.edu * ***********************************************************
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Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:15:09 -0700 From: Lisa Marie <ytsegirl@pacbell.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: re: Lisa Marie's identity crisis Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980506131507.00c65088@postoffice.pacbell.net>
At 12:53 PM 5/6/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> Jon Parmet does not exist. He's someone I made up so I could post long >> rambling observations, and not be slammed for simply being a girl. > >Umm...then I think it is my duty to tell you that there is a scumbag up >here in the Boston area who is going around to kickass rock concerts and >claiming to be you....uh....him.
Ummmmmmm... that's an actor we're paying to keep up appearances, and to harass all the women. He does a good job, doesn't he?
>That, or you and/or Carol are a lot older, balder, and MALEr than I have >previously been led to believe.
uhhh.... I'm not touching that one ;o)
Lisa Marie (begging forgiveness for the length of this thread) ytsegirl@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/ytsegirl _____________________________________ THOUGHTS - Spock's Beard Mailing List http://www.dreamt.org/spocksbeard _____________________________________
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:16:42 EDT From: Uroborosss <Uroborosss@aol.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Theory Rears Its Ugly Head Message-ID: <2120a6a.3550c52b@aol.com>
> From: someone@youboreme.com > Subject: Theory 1 > > That's a logical fallacy on your part. Attack the argument, not the > opponent.
And that's a logical fallopian tube on yours. I say attack whomever you want, whenever you want, for whatever reason. Go after the argument only when there's no opponent left to destroy.
Wait a minute...you do that already...nevermind... >> You say you don't see anybody wanting to play music they don't write??? >> Don't tell that to the many classical or jazz musicians out there > > I don't think he said that. Further, when you play jazz, you are > supposed to be writing it yourself in a sense.
This whole paragraph on jazz was dead-on as far as I could tell. What Kevin said about classical music was also dead-on.
>> And, technique and theory are NEVER useless in true MUSIC. > > Define "True Music"
Oh please. Technique and theory are never useless in ANYTHING. > How is Prodigy not art?
How is anything not art? How are these questions not rhetorical? Dammit Mulder, if you won't let me in it will only make people want to watch the show MORE...
> The views you are espousing are alarmingly elitist. You don't have a very open > perspective on music or art, if you stand by what you're saying.
Argh. I agree that what he said was close-minded. Stop saying things like "elitist" (or any "-ist" forms of existence) without defining them HERE and then saying why they SHOULDN'T be here. What's an elitist? How is an elitist view alarming? Can elitist views be un-alarming? Please don't say "read the faq, dumbass!" or "read a dictionary, dumbass!"
> Is this "music" or "true music"? Further, disestablish my understanding that > "entertainers" like Prodigy or Coolio (as a rapper) satisfy ALL of these criteria.
Yeah, right after you disignore this here rash on my ass.
> In fact, I can only think of one example that isn't "music" > by your definition, and that is what is considered by people much more > scholarly than yourself to be "chance music" in which everything falls > to chance, and wherein the exact reproduction of a piece of chance > music is statistically unlikely.
"Much more scholarly than yourself" ? Had he really had time to prove his knowledge when you replied? EXCELLENT dissertation on theory/technique/style, btw! >> When you look at great musicians, what do they have in common?? They all >> KNOW THEORY.
Eric Clapton and Yanni just opened a deli, and I hear they make a mean knuckle sandwich.
Al DiMeola once said to learn the modes and forget them... "Forget" in this sense refers to the modes becoming ingrained and effortless, moving from the conscious to the subconscious. With that philosophy in mind, lots of great musicians FORGET THEORY. > This just drips falsehood. I mean, it's oozing. You're going to saturate the jam > with your uninformed and easily falsified opinion.
Opinions can be uninformed. But easily falsified? Is that like when the word "preference" magically moves out of the Relative spectrum of ideas and into the Absolute, suddenly losing its immunity to labels like "right" or "wrong?" I really like Zen Buddhism, and I think incandescent light bulbs are the best light-source EVER! Are those opinions correct or incorrect, Chris?
Duh. I could falsify your OPINION just by disagreeing with you. > That's just elitism.
Which, since it's undefined here, must be an acceptable thing.
> If you want to be an elitist, more power to you, > but understand that those of us who disagree with you do have some > logical criticisms for you, whereas your own criticism so far has been > nothing more than putting your opinion above that of others.
In your opinion, his criticisms have been his opinions and not solid facts. But that's just my opinion. Which is disprovable.
> Well, we'll just forget to pursue that thread, since I really have no gripe with you, > and no reason to attack you on a personal level.
The intensity of an argument can often color it personal. >>You say that music came before rules, >> well, that may be true, if you're talking about ancient tribal >> music, but, Western music as it has become is based around certain >> tonal principles that should never be forgotten, > > Who dictates "should" and "shouldn't" within the confines of art?
AMEN.
> There would be no *gasp* guitar! Shred wouldn't be dead... it'd be unborn! > Oh the horror!
*gasp*
> Two favorites of this list who now implement this massive and disturbingly > cool concept are Michael Romeo and Ron Thal (who introduced me to the > concept of Dodecaphony when I asked "how did you come up with that > sick solo line!?").
Ahhh, great music from a horrifying place. Thal is to Schoenberg what Dream Theater is to Rush.
(leaps into fallout shelter and locks door) >> and someone who wants to learn about music needs to learn these principles >> before thinking they are any kind of "musician"
Ouch. I oughta...
> I've already offered my reasons why I believe this statement is > dangerously false You would exterminate half of all the prog > rockers, shredders, jazz musicians, classical composers, etc whom > you've ever heard.
Have you ever wanted to pummel someone, and just didn't have the energy? Were your arms lost in a war? Are you too weak to do any real damage to anyone? Here at Big Brothers of Ytsejam we understand your pain. For no fee at all you can adopt a big brother like Chris Ptacek to do all the smashing you can't find the willpower to carry out.
> That's why you're an elitist, because you seem to put the music you > favor on some kind of higher level than other forms of music.
So THAT'S an elitist. Sounds like fun.
> Whether you rap well, or shred well, or compose well, you're an entertainer.
Dammit everytime I think I've got something to scream at you about you go and say something I agree with...fucker... ;)
> At what point does popular become a criterion for judging the relevance of a > musical form?
AMEN!
Bafu Vai
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:19:10 -0700 From: drkhoe@gms.gmsnet.com (Dr. Mosh) To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: House of Blues - Monday May 18th Message-ID: <199805062019.NAA04735@gms.gmsnet.com>
Before proofreading..., The Digital Man said: > >Doug "No, I'm not related to Walter, so stop asking!" Cronkhite asked: > >> Anyone know if there will be a problem with me bringing a DAT recorder to >> this show? > >Not if the staff doesn't find out. :) Generally speaking, unless you're >going to a show like Phish/Crowes/moe./etc, you have to assume that taping is >forbidden. (This is *always* as safe assumption if you're going to a DT show, >unless you happen to be DT's drummer. :)
Shouldn't be much of a problem... HoB is nice and large, it'll probably be packed... and they don't do door searches... (most of the time).
-The Doc
-- *#&*@#@*(#@#*@(#!@*#(!@#(&!#(@!*#@((#@$(#@(($@#($(#@$@#($@#(*$@(*$*(#(#(##(#(# computersarefasterthanhumans - devastatetoinnovate - hyperspacialparallelcomp\ drkhoe@gmsnet.com = http://progmetal.gmsnet.com = internetcyberwetwaregamedev+ s*o#o$n@@c*o!m^e)s@@t>h<e@@|d~i+g-i%t%a.l@@<M><E><S><S><I><A><H> gaMECoReTeKN0
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Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:24:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Al Balkiewicz <balkiewi@UMDNJ.EDU> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Music Theory, Technique, and the blend thereof Message-ID: <Pine.HPP.3.96.980506161338.18469A-100000@njmsa.UMDNJ.EDU>
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Doug Cronkhite wrote:
> > You know.. a musician I really respect once said "When an artist criticizes > another, he ceases to be one". All this talk about how you can't be a proper > musician without theory, and you can't be a feel player with theory is > ridiculous. There is no requirement for art guys.. music is an art form. If > you like what you're hearing, does it really matter what that artists > education is ?? Now.. What musical theory really does, is give an artist a > way to communicate, in quantifiable terms, what he or she is doing. >
goddammit, this is exactly what I was thinking, just didn't know how to say it........
> And whatever you do.. don't start deciding what is creative.. I just > witnessed what may be the least probable jam session imaginable. Steve Vai, > and James "Munky" Schaffer from Korn. You should have seen the excitement > and interest that VAI had in the creativity of the guys in Korn. That's > really what this thing we call music is all about.. creativity.. > originality, expression. >
That's one of the things that I like about Korn, IMO. Their creativity, though it sounds like noise to some - hell the Kronos Quartet sounds like noise to most - especially with the guitars and drums, is one of the main appeals for me. Granted, their "virtuosity" may not be there in terms of fluidness and "clean"ness, but there ideas and how it fits with the type of music they play is laudable, at least by me. And the fact that Vai was impressed is just great in the sense of how classy a guy and "musician" he is. When an artist criticizes another artist, he ceases to be one - what a great line indeed.
> So get off the "this is better, or that is better" crap.. >
Amen, brutha!
-Al
===================================================================== b l i n d l a b o r s t h e b l i n d a n d I a m u n w i l l i n g t o u n c o v e r m y e y e s ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ balkiewi@njmsa.umdnj.edu OR sigma982@yahoo.com OR theprof@bigfoot.com HOMEPAGE:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/9280/index.html
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3850 **************************
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