YTSEJAM Digest 3877
Today's Topics:
1) Defensiveness
by Stephen Dedalus <mattb@mbay.net>
2) List-server for musicians.
by Stephen Dedalus <mattb@mbay.net>
3) Like the new SIG???
by NuGgeTMaN <emoeglin@infinite.wezl.org>
4) Re: which songs on FII are prog
by Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net>
5) DreamTheater in Manchester
by Andrew <Andrew.Unwin@durham.ac.uk>
6) oh oh
by Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com>
7) Choco-Bliss
by someone@enteract.com
8) Re: Puff
by Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net>
9) Poof daddy
by Luke Bateup <slslb@winshop.com.au>
10) Ben Folds Five/MB20
by Luke Bateup <slslb@winshop.com.au>
11) Re: Earplugs
by Beyond the Mirror <mail@beyondthemirror.com>
12) Well, I guess I opened the can of worms to begin with...
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
13) Re: Puff
by The Digital Man <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU>
14) Re: blind?
by The iban <Theiban@aol.com>
15) Re: Puff
by "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:17:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Dedalus <mattb@mbay.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Defensiveness
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980511001607.19918B-100000@otter.mbay.net>
Sometimes, it's good to respond to a reaction which is unwaranted with
patience and an explanation. Few people on this list *try their hardest*
to be an ass hole. It just happens to each of us sometimes. Oh well,
even this has been said before. I so wish we could all just be patient
with each other. Wellness.
Matt
============================================================================
ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!
Guitarist in the Santa Cruz/Monterey area of California seeks
innovative, experimental, technical, and fun-loving musicians to
create works of art and share them with the public. Enquire if
interested.
mattb@mbay.net
=================================================================================
"That is the truth. Not the hammer and sickle; not the stars and stripes;
not the cross; not the sun; not gold; not yin and yang, but the smile...
Because they died, we know we still live. Because a star explodes and a
thousand worlds like ours die, we know this world is. That is the smile,
that what might not be is." (John Fowles, The Magus)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:20:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Dedalus <mattb@mbay.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: List-server for musicians.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980511001824.19918C-100000@otter.mbay.net>
I'm interested in putting together a listserver which musicians could
subscribe to, post who they are, what they play, what they're looking for,
and where they are maybe once a week or so and try to find band mates. It
could be a worldwide thing, too. Is anyone interested in hosting this and
maybe helping me put it together? I think it couuld be really useful. Be
well.
Matt B
============================================================================
ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!
Guitarist in the Santa Cruz/Monterey area of California seeks
innovative, experimental, technical, and fun-loving musicians to
create works of art and share them with the public. Enquire if
interested.
mattb@mbay.net
=================================================================================
"That is the truth. Not the hammer and sickle; not the stars and stripes;
not the cross; not the sun; not gold; not yin and yang, but the smile...
Because they died, we know we still live. Because a star explodes and a
thousand worlds like ours die, we know this world is. That is the smile,
that what might not be is." (John Fowles, The Magus)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:44:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: NuGgeTMaN <emoeglin@infinite.wezl.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@ax.com>
Subject: Like the new SIG???
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980511033954.5531B-100000@infinite.wezl.org>
I just wanted to point out my new SIG that's very PC and kicks a whole
lotta ass!!! Plus since members of the jam have been bitching for YEARS
about my annoyingly long SIG I figure it's a welcome breath of fresh air
*******************************************************************************
* "Notorious Puff Doggy is good at two things. 1) Making people think he *
* is a gifted artist. 2) Karaoke." -Chris Merlo while discussing Puff Daddy *
*******************************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 02:49:50 -0500
From: Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Re: which songs on FII are prog
Message-ID: <3556AD9E.2CFD@bellsouth.net>
>
> Ok, on the subject of FII, lest just look at how many songs can fit the "listener friendly" mainstream style,
> and how many can fit the prog style:
>
> 1. New Millennium - prog
> 2. You Not Me - mainstream
> 3. Peruvian Skies - prog
> 4. Hollow Years - mainstream
> 5. Burning my Soul - prog
> 6. Hell's Kitchen - prog
> 7. Lines in the Sand - prog
> 8. Take Away My Pain - mainstream
> 9. Just Let Me Breathe - prog
> 10. Anna Lee - mainstream
> 11. Trial of Tears - prog
Actually, I wouldn't put Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breath as
prog.In fact, Burning My Soul is the only one I've heard on the radio.
They're both heavy, but short, and catchy....just my opinion, but, I'm
not complaining, cuz I love the album so much, I can't really find
fault with hardly any of it....:)
-- Geaux Tigers!!!! http://www.angelfire.com/la/qryche/index.html "I Know If I Try, I'll Get Where I'm Going/ Keeping My Eyes On the Sky" -"Some People Fly" by Queensryche------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:52:19 +0100 From: Andrew <Andrew.Unwin@durham.ac.uk> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: DreamTheater in Manchester Message-ID: <3556AE33.4920@smtphost.dur.ac.uk>
I have now posted my DT concert photos on my webpage so that you can have a look if you want. The setup of the pages isn't brilliant at the moment but I don't have the time right now. If you want to download the pictures then you can use something like photoeditor to convert to 24bit colour and run autocontrast - this works especially well with the John Myung photo. Whatever let me know what you think of them (and my webpage) if you do take a look.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d704dr/dtconc1.htm
-- Andrew Unwin http://www.dur.ac.uk/~d704dr 1st year MSci (Chemistry) Grey College, Durham University "You'll Never Walk Alone"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:07:00 EDT From: Calvin 6S <Calvin6S@aol.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: oh oh Message-ID: <a779c68a.3556b1a5@aol.com>
>I don't see what the big problem is in all this. Puff and Page didn't >record this and then attempt to sell it to millions. I could understand >the complaints if they actually did this, but it was just for SNL,
actually the did record it
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:16:01 +0000 From: someone@enteract.com To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Choco-Bliss Message-ID: <199805110810.DAA23599@wheat.farm.niu.edu>
> I agree absolutely 100& with every word of Damon's post. Rap is really > ridiculous bullshit. I don't even consider it music, and I think the > fact that it's so popular speaks volumes on how ignorant the general > populous of the U.S. is.
Yeah. Prog is ridiculous bullshit too. All those dudes with all that hair, screaming like little girls and playing guitar as fast as they can. All those time signature changes just to make it impossible to really groove on, and to make sure they show us who knows more about how to write a hard riff. Come on. Anyone who puts down a complete genre of music as bullshit is a fucking shithead.
> Where the heck do you buy earplugs? > Meijer? The drug store? Music store?
Most music stores, some drug stores near concert halls. Some larger grocery stores. > From: Jon Kretschmer <jkretsch@sdcc17.ucsd.edu>
> And I was thinking. If you really want to fuck around with Damon's speech > machine, just do the following... <Snip> ROFL! Well, I'm gonna go study martial arts for seven years so I can kick your ass when we start having Ytse Steel Cage Matches!!!
> From: Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net>
Man. That was funny. You're a really creative guy. You're entitled to like or dislike whatever you want. You just keep telling yourself that you're somehow better than fans of that kind of music. I'm sure there are lots of people who would love to be as cool as you. I mean, you know what music is good and what music is bad... we should all look up to you. Can I have your autograph? I'm just going to assume that what Jimmy Page wants to do is okay by you. I know, I know, he didn't get your permission to make something different and wild out of a Zep tune... but he's Jimmy Page and all... Sure, he didn't grow up listening to jazz, and sure, he doesn't know all his theory as well as you do, but I mean, he's written a couple neat little songs, so I'll give him the benefit of artistic freedom, even if that means he's gonna make "bad music."
Merlo, I know it was some deep and creative sarcasm on Kevin's part, but I'm surprised you didn't catch on.
> Imagine that I stole your car, had it re-painted, and drove up to your house > to say, "Hey, Kev! Check out my new ride!"
How is that at all a similar analogy? Didn't people say Jimmy Page was on stage with him? You think he's stealing these songs? Last time I checked, you don't ask permission to steal.
> Notorious Puff Doggy is good at two things. 1) Making people think he is a > gifted artist. 2) Karaoke.
What is the Notorious D-Man good at? :) Argue as much as you want, but he's got to be doing something right. Nirvana sucks, IMO, but they had to be doing something right. For me to call them worthless is to disparage the millions of people who still like their music today, and I'm not willing to be that much of an asshole. If you are, that's your business.
> I'd be willing to bet that with a few hours of free time, I could *gak!* > reboot my machine into Windows and do the same remix he does with the stock > SoundBlaster software.
You're on. Go for it. :) I'd KILL to hear D-Man rap.
Why is it okay for DT to cover tunes and sell a disc of the stuff, but not okay for Puff Daddy to make his own stuff out of tunes, with permission from the original artist? Because you guys like DT, and not rap? That's all I can come up with. If Petrucci released a cd full of the little covers he does, like Purple Rain and all that stuff, on a cd, you guys would all be raving about it. Forget the fact that we'd have Prince fans saying "Who does this Petrucci guy think he is? He can't write his own tunes... he has to go and ruin a classic song!" I mean, anyone that says that must be an ignorant fuck. Now that someone crosses it over into a genre you don't approve of, you bitch and moan. What's wrong with this picture? Do we really think we're so much better than everyone else that our rules don't apply to us?
This is a revolting attitude to have. I fully agree with Calvin.
Go Home and Practice!
Chris Ptacek someone@prognosis.com http://www.prognosis.com/madsman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:12:34 -0500 From: Kevin Carmouche <khc@bellsouth.net> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Puff Message-ID: <3556B2F2.6B25@bellsouth.net>
> > He might be the most talented musician in the world, but he hasn't shown it > yet. He has not once in his professional career created music. He talks over > other people's music. It's the lowest common denominator. That has got to be > the absolute laziest way to create a record. It is completely abhorrent to me. > > Actually, that's not entirely true. I could give a shit whether he lives, > dies, or grows mushrooms out of his ass. But the popular media, in the name > of the Almighty Dollar, have convinced the world's pop-culture lemmings that > it is worthy of praise, admiration, and -- most importantly -- their money. > That turns my stomach. The more the general public is led to believe that > this is Art which must be Revered, the more difficult it will be for artists > to make a living at their art. > > And I'm not just talking about music, either. (Oh, great, D-Man's off on a > rant.) Check the local movie theater. Titanic. Godzilla. Flubber. All > remakes of old ideas, because movie makers couldn't think of any new stories. > All mass-marketed to death, so that the Lemmings would decide that they are > Good. And all named with one-word titles so stupid Americans could remember > what to order tickets for at the box office. > > Art is dying, folks. The longer we allow utter shit to gain popularity and > acclaim, the harder it will be to find true art.
Who's to say that Puff Daddy isn't art??? Are you implying that rap isn't art??? How can you define or classify art?? Or even music for that matter?? And how is Titanic, Godzilla, Flubber not good??? Maybe not good to your liking, but you can't say "This is not good" and say that's law. And I guess Casablanca sucks too, since it is one word... There's nothing wrong at all with what Puff Daddy is doing, he's writing the words, right??? He's creating the ideas of doing what he's doing, right??? so obviously if he's creating, he's being artistic, so it must be art...:)
-- Geaux Tigers!!!! http://www.angelfire.com/la/qryche/index.html "I Know If I Try, I'll Get Where I'm Going/ Keeping My Eyes On the Sky" -"Some People Fly" by Queensryche
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:19:51 +1000 From: Luke Bateup <slslb@winshop.com.au> To: ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Poof daddy Message-ID: <3556B4A7.7F8E@winshop.com.au>
Matt informed us of a great injustice:
> I am watching right now probably the WORST and most DISGRACEFUL > performances of a great song by a rap singer. I am watching SNL and > Puff Daddy is totally RUINING Kashmir by Led Zeppelin. I feel > terribly sorry for the millions of kids around my age being exposed to > this catastrophy of a song, instead of the great original.
This one post has made me SO grateful that here we in Australia DO NOT receive SNL on free-to-air TV. Hearning about it was painful enough, but if I just happened to see this apparently abysmal act, I would shrivel up in agony until I died of dehydration from bawling my f**ken eyes out...
Luke.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:20:08 +1000 From: Luke Bateup <slslb@winshop.com.au> To: ytsejam <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Ben Folds Five/MB20 Message-ID: <3556B4B8.2DA2@winshop.com.au>
Melissa hit the nail on the head and wrote:
> sorry, i have to take issue with ben folds five being included in this > statement. i cant think of a more innovative band to come out > recently (a good pop <gasp!> band with a piano at the center, and with > no guitar). they are also one of the best bands ive seen live. i > will agree that radio is totally overplaying their song "brick" which > really pisses me off considering that almost all of any of their > albums is nothing like that song.
I would have to agree with Melissa. Of all the bands currently having some sort of 'hit' entrenched in the Top 40, BFF is one the few (probably the only one) I like. They do put on an excellent live performance, I saw these guys about a year ago peforming on a quaint little Midday chat show over here in Australia, and they came out and really blew away all the poxy, cabaret singing acts one would normally see on this show. They definately manage to tap into a quite a unique groove of their own....
> i am way more annoyed by bands such as Third Eye Blind, Matchbox 20, > all the ska wannabe bands, etc. i think if youre going to talk about > bands without longevity, those are the bands i would point out. i > dont hear anything original in their stuff.
Again I would with agree Melissa. It also annoys me to see bands like MB20 making shitloads by riding on the recycled dreggs on current trends, utilizing little creativity or originality of their own. Pretty much any band along the lines of MB20/TEB that comes out nowadays (or after the release of I&W for that matter) and receives more commercial recognition than DT currently has, is automatically blacklisted.
Cheerin'
Luke.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 03:32:16 -0500 From: Beyond the Mirror <mail@beyondthemirror.com> To: "'YJ Digest'" <ytsejam@ax.com> Subject: Re: Earplugs Message-ID: <01BD7C8D.6E63A920.mail@beyondthemirror.com>
Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@ameritech.net> wrote...
<<<Where the heck do you buy earplugs? <<<Meijer? The drug store? Music store? <<<If DT is as loud as last time, I think I'll need 'em!
I use the foam cylinder ones myself. You can get them at any place that sells guns. They protect your hearing the best, but they cut the frequencies very unevenly (cut a lot of high end making things sound dull and muddy). For something that I really want to hear well (such as a DT concert) I usually wear one earplug and switch it from one ear to the other every ten minutes or so. That way I always have one fresh ear while the other one is resting (hearing damage results from a combination of volume and duration).
Of course, there are those custom fit earplugs you can buy (they cost over $100). They cut the frequencies more evenly and are particularly valuable to sound techs and singers. I've never used those but I have several friends who have and they love em.
'Hope this helps, Josh Becker josh@beyondthemirror.com http://www.beyondthemirror.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:36:10 -0400 From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Well, I guess I opened the can of worms to begin with... Message-ID: <199805110836.EAA22287@daffy.cs.wm.edu>
Quoth Madsman:
> What is the Notorious D-Man good at? :) Argue as much as you > want, but he's got to be doing something right.
Not necessarily. MTV is pwerful enough to sell anything. Milli Vanilli won a Grammy.
> Nirvana sucks, IMO, > but they had to be doing something right. For me to call them > worthless is to disparage the millions of people who still like their > music today, and I'm not willing to be that much of an asshole. If > you are, that's your business.
I *never* said that Puff Doggy's "music" is worthless. It entertains a great many people. I just think it's the highest form of cheating.
> You're on. Go for it. :) I'd KILL to hear D-Man rap.
You'd probably be more inclined to kill *while* hearing me rap. :)
> Why is it okay for DT to cover tunes and sell a disc of the stuff, > but not okay for Puff Daddy to make his own stuff out of tunes, with > permission from the original artist? Because you guys like DT, and > not rap? That's all I can come up with.
That's not it. I happen to really like some rap. PE comes immediately to mind. The mixing that Terminator X does is quite original, and Chuck D's lyrics inspire me to *think*. Poof Daddy hit play on a CD and talked over it. There is a difference -- not in quality of the final product (because that's subjective), but in the means of creating that product. PE were innovative in their selection of beats, rhythms, and samples. Using one sample as the entire musical background of a piece is not sampling.
> If Petrucci released a cd > full of the little covers he does, like Purple Rain and all that > stuff, on a cd, you guys would all be raving about it.
That depends. I mean, more than likely, yeah, I would, but that's because I know that JP would do a bang-up job recording it. He would add his own style, his own flavor, to the music. And if he ran the Purple Rain CD into a 4-track and soloed over it, I'd accuse him of the same thing I'm accusing Puffy of.
> Do we really think we're so much better than everyone else > that our rules don't apply to us?
I believe precisely the opposite. The "rules" apply to everybody. If you're going to craft a work of art, then do just that. But don't pass off someone else's work as your own.
I'm curious as to how my fellow debaters felt about Ice Ice Baby's version of "Under Pressure." There's quite a parallel to be drawn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:54:57 -0400 From: The Digital Man <cmerlo@CS.WM.EDU> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Puff Message-ID: <199805110854.EAA22357@daffy.cs.wm.edu>
> Who's to say that Puff Daddy isn't art??? Are you implying that rap > isn't art???
Nonononono. As I said in my reply to Chris, I happen to really like some rap, particularly PE and Run DMC. I'm saying that Puff is cheating. I made no broad generalizations about rap.
> How can you define or classify art?? Or even music for that > matter??
We do it all the time. Humans need to classify things.
> And how is Titanic, Godzilla, Flubber not good??? Maybe not > good to your liking, but you can't say "This is not good" and say that's > law.
I never said they're not good movies (especially since I haven't seen them). What I said is that Hollywood has resorted, by and large, to rehashing old ideas, because no one out there in the big-budget studios is capable of coming up with new ideas. They know that people like comfort. "We fear change." (There's another movie quiz for ya. :) The general public doesn't like to be challenged, or to try new things. That's why there's a McDonalds in every place with a name, and why they all do massive amounts of business. The food sucks, but it's a known constant. Hollywood is taking the easy way out by rehashing what we're already familiar with, and they're scoring big. There's no danger in that.
Same with Poof Doggy. He's smart enough to know that everyone and their brother can hum "Every Breath You Take," and he capitalized on it, in the most shallow, pathetic, un-artistic way imaginable - he put his voice over Sting, Andy, and Stewart's recording.
For what it's worth, I can't begin to imagine why Sting or Page would share a stage with him. Neither one needs the publicity or the money. Maybe they see things differently than I. Maybe Puffy discovered that each one really does have a price. Who knows?
> And I guess Casablanca sucks too, since it is one word...
That movie came out so long ago, it doesn't factor into the equation. But here's something that does, now that you got me started again. :) For hundreds, maybe thousands of years, people have recorded Gregorian Chants. They're as dead as Latin. They're written. There are no new chants. A few years ago, some marketing genius who probably owns Aruba by now decided to target Gregorian Chant music to Americans. You with me so far? It's hundreds of years old. There are stacks and stacks of chant CD's in any Tower Records. (Go look, I'll wait.) I can't imagine that anyone has ever had trouble finding chants on CD, if they knew where to look.
Along comes aforementioned marketing genius. Let's take a recording of chants, give it a hip cover with cool-looking computer-generated clouds, and a monosyllabic title that people won't forget on their way to the record counter. "Hi. I'd like to buy Chant." is easy enough for anyone to remember. I will take this opportunity to remind you yet again that there have been no developments in the world of Gregorian Chant *at all* for hundreds of years. Not one.
People bought "Chant" like it was the Bible with the original cast. Yet another example that good marketing can re-sell the same product over and over again.
I refer you back to my arguments regarding Titanic, Flubber, and Puffy.
> There's nothing wrong at all with what Puff Daddy is doing, he's > writing the words, right??? He's creating the ideas of doing what he's > doing, right??? so obviously if he's creating, he's being artistic, so > it must be art...:)
I can piss on my carpet and call it art if I want. The question is, what are we willing to respect?
------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough cmerlo@cs.wm.edu "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates d-man@dreamt.org /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 05:14:40 EDT From: The iban <Theiban@aol.com> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: blind? Message-ID: <c84ebd33.3556c182@aol.com>
i got you back Chris =]
Rocky
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 May 98 04:42:40 -0500 From: "Brian Hayden" <Brian.D.Hayden-1@tc.umn.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Re: Puff Message-ID: <3556c80f115a002@mhub3.tc.umn.edu>
The Digital Man ranteth:
"That's why there's a McDonalds in every place with a name, and why they all do massive amounts of business. The food sucks, but it's a known constant."
I like McDonald's, punk. If you don't watch it, I'm gonna not only bust you up with my extensive judo knowledge gained from watching seven years of ninja B-movies, but I'll also have my bodybuilder cousing come and stun you with his pretty boy looks until you beg for mercy like a hootenanny.
"People bought "Chant" like it was the Bible with the original cast."
Funny line, but it doesn't hold up to logic Mr. Merlo. First, if the Bible came back with the original cast, nobody would go because those would be some badly decayed bodies on stage. Now, let's grant that through a miracle the characters were returned to their original state. Now, one of these characters is Jesus. Are you following me so far? Good. Now, if Jesus were to return like that, it would obviously be the second coming, signifying Armaggedon. Now, if it were Armageddon, I somehow doubt that Jesus, et al., would have the spare time on their hands to star in a major Broadway production. But even if he did make time in his busy schedule, who would go see it? Christians the world around would be busying preparing their souls for the hereafter, and non-Christians would either be making a dash for the nearest available conversion center, taking up arms for the hordes of the Beast, or resigning themselves to the bleak prospect of nothingness for all eternity, which wouldn't really put people in a theater-going mood.
So, I hope you have realized now that you were wrong to say that. Be more careful next time, please.
-Brian
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3877 **************************
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