YTSEJAM Digest 4597
Today's Topics:
1) Derek-bashing from the woodwork...
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
2) I ate Elton
by "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
3) Re: Myung/Levin
by Craig Griffith <tarkus@softhome.net>
4) Some serious thoughts on the recent lineup change....
by Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@home.com>
5) Re: yeah. im sooo stupid. you idiots :)
by AyameYuki@aol.com
6) derek bashing
by "Isaac Trumbo" <inferno_one@hotmail.com>
7) Saga
by "Duran/Pulgar" <ldbp@rivernet.com.au>
8) RE: Next Producer? Album Title?
by "Dave Thomas" <dthomas@best.com>
9) Re: One More Thing .....
by "Trent Thornton" <stairway2kashmir@hotmail.com>
10) Re: Next Producer?
by "Trent Thornton" <stairway2kashmir@hotmail.com>
11) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4596
by Dave <dhatlee@dhpc.com>
12) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4592
by Evan + Vanessa Thomson <evanessa@mira.net>
13) Man, what a dick.
by "Tom Walling" <tomwalling@hotmail.com>
14) JR and DS -- just some response comments
by "Christopher Files" <cfiles@erols.com>
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:40:52 -0600
From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Derek-bashing from the woodwork...
Message-ID: <36a685a40ae8001@mhub1.tc.umn.edu>
Responding To: JamesAhab@aol.com
Original Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:49:30 -0800 (PST)
>
>
> >< Where are the Derek bashers? They're laying low, because unlike
> yourself
> they don't want to be confrontational assholes. ><
>
> Derek-bashers *are* confrontational assholes.
Well, it seems that a lot of them are. Apparently what I thought was
restraint was actually just the fact that most of the assholes didn't find
out right away. :-P
-Brian
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:45:49 -0600
From: "Brian Hayden" <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: I ate Elton
Message-ID: <36a686cd45ef001@mhub3.tc.umn.edu>
Responding To: "Trent Thornton" <stairway2kashmir@hotmail.com>
Original Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:37:57 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>
> >Quit trying to be cool, we all know you have a closet full of Elton
> >John albums.
>
> What's wrong with Elton John albums?
NOTHING! I WANT TO BE IMPREGNATED BY ELTON JOHN! THE FETUS WILL GESTATE IN
MY TONSILS!!
-Brian
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:18:31 -0500
From: Craig Griffith <tarkus@softhome.net>
To: ytsejam@axnet.net
Subject: Re: Myung/Levin
Message-ID: <36A68E77.9C283F06@softhome.net>
> I think Myung is a LITTLE more prog than Tony.
Um...have you ever heard of King Crimson? They're only one of the most
successful (and we're talking musically successful here) prog bands out there.
Tony's played with them since 1981 or so and helped define their excellent
post-70s sound. What's more, he's also been part of two "last name projects",
the 80s reformation of Yes called Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe, and the Magna
Carta "supergroup" project Bozzio Levin Stevens (which is, IMO, on a level equal
to or higher than LTE). Both are/were inherently prog and inherently cool, in
case you get a chance to check them out. Prog bass does NOT necessarily mean
two-hand tapping and playing fireworks. Cases in point: Chris Squire, John
Wetton, Greg Lake, and the man himself, Tony Levin.
-- Craig Griffith: High school student, guitar player, King of Craigland http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Dell/8509/ "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" -Ian Anderson------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:27:16 -0500 From: Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@home.com> To: YTSEJAM <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: Some serious thoughts on the recent lineup change.... Message-ID: <36A69084.7FFBB66D@home.com>
Okay, here is my take on the news of the year....
DEREK: Firstly I want to say that Derek Sherinian is one helluva musician, and a kickass showman. He has indeed brought some cool things into the band. I think in many ways, he'll definitely be missed. On two personal notes: I've seen DT live three times (all with Derek), and Mr. Sherinian has impressed me each and every time! Also (even though I've heard he was a dick) he was really cool with me when I met him after a Detroit show last year, and we shared a chuckle about my (finally) finding out what Nicky Lemons was!
I also want to say that I'm kinda disappointed to read many of you ragging on Derek (and some of you on Jordan). :(
I personally want to wish Derek the best of luck.
JORDAN: Well, that being said..... Even though I will miss Derek, I'm very happy to see Jordan in the band and I think it's a good move. Why? Well, I have to admit I think Jordan "fits" the band better than Derek did (both in reference to his personality/attitude and musical influence). I never really thought Derek and the rest of the group were on the same page (but that's just an outsider's view so it may or may not be correct).
I think Jordan will bring alot of electricity to DT, and perhaps even more inspiration to the rest of the group (I have a feeling that JP and MP probably have raging hard-ons thinking about recording/writing a DT album with Jordan on keys).
I'm also thinking (hoping?) that the next album with Jordan will be in a slightly different (more progressive, less commercial) direction than FII. I think FII is an excellent album (even the more commercial stuff like Anna Lee and Hollow Years), and I like SOME of the new direction it took, BUT (and this is a big BUT - no pun intended) I feel that it failed to be a beginning-to-end masterpiece like IaW and Awake (neither of those two CDs really had ANY weak moments, IMO).
Oh, and lastly- there's no question that Jordan is simply an amazingly gifted keyboard player.
WAS IT A FUCKED UP THING TO DO TO DEREK? Okay, since I don't know the full story on what exactly happened (like was Derek already thinking of leaving/unhappy?, was there a VH-style blow-up?, or did the guys just decide to ditch him?), I'm just gonna make a guess and say the guys simply decided to give Derek a pink slip, in favor of Jordan. So..... was it fucked up? Well, I say both YES, and NO.
YES, of course any time you fire somebody, it pretty well sucks (I have to do it now and again at work, and I always hate doing it, even if I think the person really deserves it).
NO, in a way it wasn't a shitty thing though. Why? Well, if the group honestly felt they were doing THE BEST THING FOR THE GROUP and making DREAM THEATER A BETTER BAND, then I think they were wise to do it (only time will tell if it really does make DT better, but if their hearts were in the right place: more power to them.)
Just remember, the last time they "fired" a member (whom they obviously weren't happy with), DT's vocals got about a hundred times better (IMO). I wouldn't be here talking about DT today if they wouldn't have brought on James.
Here's an analogy for you sports fans (non-sports fans, bear with me for a second)..... If your favorite team could trade YOUR FAVORITE PLAYER to acquire another guy who would help your team win a championship, would you want them to do it?
I was really bummed a few years ago when the Detroit Red Wings hockey team got rid of one of my all-time favorite players, Dino Ciccarelli (a tough little Italian guy with a BIG HEART, not to mention skills). Then they traded two other players, Keith Primeau (now an All-Star with Carolina), and another favorite of mine, perennial All-Star Paul Coffey. Well, I tell ya......... I MISSED THOSE GUYS (especially Dino and Paul), but...... in return they got Brendan Shanahan, who proved to be the last major piece they needed to go on and become the defending BACK TO BACK STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS.
Did it suck that they got rid of those guys? Sure did.
But was it worth it? HELL YES it was!
THE LAST WORD: People, be honest with me (and yourselves) for a moment: How often has Dream Theater let you down? The answer is probably either NEVER, or VERY, VERY RARELY.
Well, if John Petrucci, Mike Portnoy, John Myung, and James LaBrie got together and came to the conclusion that Dream Theater is going to be a better, stronger band with Jordan Rudess as a member......... DON'T YOU TRUST THEM? Personally, I have a lot of faith that they won't let either myself, or my beloved fellow Jammers down.
God Bless, and good luck to Derek Sherinian in all his future endeavors!
- Joe D. aka Magellan (is eagerly anticipating the next DT album!) jdeangelo@home.com ICQ # 1872723 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I swear on tomorrow- If you take this chance- Our lives are this moment The music, the dance- And here in this labyrinth- Of lost mysteries I close my eyes on this night- And you're all that I see - Savatage, from "Not What You See" -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:22:17 EST From: AyameYuki@aol.com To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: yeah. im sooo stupid. you idiots :) Message-ID: <4f5ca0e8.36a68f59@aol.com>
yeah, ill admit i made *stupid* quotes as well as posts, but dont go by me, you dobut donnt know me personally and what my deal is mentally. :) anyway, i TOTALLY agree with the hatred of Anna Lee. im not going to check which guy wrote it, but come on..FII is great, but adding a song about a scenerio like how much prom sucks and everyone ignores you becuase you act like a total outcast instead of biting the bullet and making a change about your social life, and your view of yourself. but that's my opinion.
a true nerd wouldnt say this eh ?
later,. nic
and that's Ms. Stupid. :) ( im having fun getting bashed again. hah, im lyin, i still dont like some of you, or Metallica either! . PS dont quote me on that! )
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:27:03 PST From: "Isaac Trumbo" <inferno_one@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: derek bashing Message-ID: <19990121022704.7046.qmail@hotmail.com>
i hate derek and always have and have always said so!!! anyone who supports him obviously hasn't read an interview with him.. he admits openly to disliking prog and even dream theater.. he's a pompous ass prick that needs to get kicked in the head.. just watch he'll go join some lame ass hard rock band like whitesnake or somethin.. fuck him.. glad he's gone.. Viva La Jordan!!!
>>< Where are the Derek bashers? They're laying low, because unlike >yourself >they don't want to be confrontational assholes. >< > >Derek-bashers *are* confrontational assholes.
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:33:18 +1100 From: "Duran/Pulgar" <ldbp@rivernet.com.au> To: "YTSEJAM" <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: Saga Message-ID: <000d01be44e6$8cc462c0$3ae458cb@ld-bp>
Hello! Wow, SAGA mentioned here! >Didn't someone once say on the jam that there are those that love Saga >and those that haven't heard Saga? Well, I'm listening now!
You can't go wrong with the first SAGA albums: SAGA Images at Twilight Silent Night Worlds Apart Heads or Tales
I was lucky I had the chance to see them live 3 times when they were just starting and their drummer always impressed me, and imagine a band where 3 of 5 guys play keyboards! The main keyboard player, Jim Gilmour, is incredible, and additionally, he plays flute and clarinet (not enough though) for extra ambience and texture in their music, and Michael Saddler is an excellent frontman and singer.
Thx: BP
NP: Genesis-Archive 1967-75
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:41:25 -0800 From: "Dave Thomas" <dthomas@best.com> To: <ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: RE: Next Producer? Album Title? Message-ID: <001301be44e7$8a77e540$046400c0@oemcomputer>
Rick Audet said:
> >Or produced by Rhys Fulber. That could make for an > interesting record...
You're not kidding. I'd love to hear what he'd do with the DT "sound".
Suggestions like this are just another reason why Rick Audet is just so cool...
Dave Thomas - Editor, Pixel Planet Reviews of books, music, comics, movies, games, CG software, programming tools and more! http://www.pixelplanet.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:47:26 PST From: "Trent Thornton" <stairway2kashmir@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: One More Thing ..... Message-ID: <19990121024727.5515.qmail@hotmail.com>
>I also have to admit that there are several people writing to the list from >this address.
Okay, all together now- WHAT THE FUCK?!?
Trent
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:53:49 PST From: "Trent Thornton" <stairway2kashmir@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: Next Producer? Message-ID: <19990121025350.5651.qmail@hotmail.com>
You can scratch John Paul Jones from that list as he will be releasing his own solo album soon and then tour extensively to promote it. I just hope that Steve Albini stays the hell out. Anyone think Scott Litt could do a good job? He's produced a LOT of R.E.M.'s stuff.
Trent
>Someone mentioned this before, but does anyone know who will be the >producer on the next DT studio release? Producers are usually changed >quite a bit, but they can often make quite a difference. > >If Kevin Shirley is not there for the new one, who will it be? A >previous producer, a famous producer, an unknown? > >Hmmm...How about: > >Dave Jerden - Infamous Dirt producer >Sylvia Massy - Infamous Tool Producer >Mutt Lange - Infamous Hit Producer >John Paul Jones - Infamous Bass god and producer. > >John Purdell, Duane Baron? Rob Zombie? Terry Brown? Terry Date? Puff >Daddy? Steve Evetts, Eric Rachel? Kevin Moore? Flemming Rasmussen? Bob >Rock? ;op > >Of course it wouldn't be a surprise to see the recording co-produced >by Dream Theater... > >my $.02, BH > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > >
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:26:26 -0500 From: Dave <dhatlee@dhpc.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4596 Message-ID: <199901210324.WAA16266@promail1.ee.net>
>To me, Awake was the low point.
I beg to differ!!! GOD I LOVE THAT CD!!!
But maybe this proves a point somewhere....I have a friend who likes FII and ACOS much more than I/W and Awake....I am the opposite, although I love them all, my fav's are still Awake and I/W.
Isn't it cool how they can appeal to different variations of prog taste? DT RULEZ :):)
Dave Hatlee
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:39:33 +1100 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson <evanessa@mira.net> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4592 Message-ID: <36A6A175.89B13206@mira.net>
> > Vanessa spewed: > >The guy looks too 'Bono' to be in Dream Theater? Obviously "prog" > >means; guys wearing tight, black jeans with long hair and looking > >suitably intense over their instruments? > > Vanessa, > > How the fuck did you come up that drivel? > You better check to see if the batteries in "Mother's little helper" are leaking. >
Easy to be obnoxious isn't it?! If you had bothered to read my post you would have realised that the point I'm making is this: A joke statement relating to the appearance of a band... music is about... the music. Not about how somebody looks...
> > >I belong to the Joni Mitchell Discussion List but I thought I'd check this out and I > > That explains a lot. >
Again, easy to be dismissive and make bland statements that really mean nothing.
> > >just want to know... what's looks got to do with it? > > Nothing. Clothing on the other hand can make quite a statement. > Show up at Toys-R-US wearing a slinky french maid's outfit and swim > flippers and see what kind of reaction the clientele has. >
So..? Clothing is only exterior... if it means that much to you then perhaps Marilyn Mason will appeal to you. Clothes say nothing it, only shows how narrow minded and judgmental people are if they choose to criticise on that level.
> > Derek was known to wear some VERY unusual threads, that's why > he was being critiqued so much.
Yes, so in point you're agreeing with me that looks mean nothing and that Derek was being critiqued on looks!? Perhaps you should think before you post... I used an example and I'm sure most took it that way... like the Yanni remark :-)
> > Before you post again, do your homework. > > It was done, I knew what I was posting but perhps you should think where you're coming > from...? Perhaps you can just swear at me again and say tedious little remarks and we can go > tit for tat... but I have better things to discuss... next time make your point and use > reason rather than 'witty' rhetoric.
To paraphrase your inept comment... "Before 'you' post again perhaps you should use your brain"
> Al - The Ytse-ProGtologist > ^ > Switchcraft Microsystems > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "It's supposed to pack an awesome buzz" --Butthead > > Vanessa who is very proud to be a Joni Mitchell fan and does not regard this as derogatory
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:18:52 PST From: "Tom Walling" <tomwalling@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@axnet.net Subject: Man, what a dick. Message-ID: <19990121041853.7471.qmail@hotmail.com>
Let me keep what will be my last poston the subject short. GET OFF MY BACK. I guess a real, mature person lacks the ability to appreciate good natured joking. Funny to hear that coming from all of you that have been writing all this bullshit on here for the last few months I have subscribed, but it's cool- I know you're just a bunch of big fucking assholes anyway. And Christopher Ptacek, sorry to bother you. I guess next time I shouldn't use the 'net to hide behind MY REAL NAME, you dick. Thanks for your time.
Tom
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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:15:59 -0500 From: "Christopher Files" <cfiles@erols.com> To: <Ytsejam@axnet.net> Subject: JR and DS -- just some response comments Message-ID: <002f01be44f5$688e8700$09c97ad1@artoo-detoo>
Zaphod wrote: <<<<I believe they'll probably use Met II... It has all been written and I doubt that Jordan will bring big additional changes in this.... As to the other music, UACM states that they'll be working ' a la LTE', meaning that they'll write and record the music more or less at the same time. This means that for Met II they'll do the same as with ACOS. ACOS was written with Kevin still in DT, and Derek just played Kevin's parts for the record... I do believe that the same thing happened for some FII songs. Some of them were already written before Derek became an official member. Is this true? And were the keyboard parts also finished yet, or did Derek write them afterwards? Other songs on FII were definitaly written while Derek was in the band (LiTS, Anna Lee)... But I don't know about NM or ToT...>>>> Carlos responded: <<<<Ok first of all... most of ACos' keyboard parts are WAY different on the album version than on the demos with Kevin, and NO not any FII song was written with kevin or without derek for that matter, also.. >>>> And Evan, without much thought, commented (Re: Met II): <<<< I'm sure (well I'm not really - it's just my opinion) that Jordan would not want to work on someone else's keyboard parts the first thing he does in the new band.>>>>
Just listen to the Dance of Eternity version of ACoS and it's clear that Derek was not just "playing Kevin's parts for the record"; Derek wrote a kickass solo for (what ended up as) The Inevitable Summer, and it was much different from the keys solo section that Kevin played in the same spot (although I must say that I liked Kevin's key solo better). Therefore, I think it's safe to guess that Jordan would write his own keys solo sections for the new Met II, not just play what Derek had written. And I'm quite sure they won't drop Met II--it's rumored to be completely written, and the band KNOWS how much we're anticipating its release, and I would imagine it's something that JP really wants to release as a completion (continuation?) to Part 1.
CyberDuke wrote: <<<<I think Jordan is softer! :) He surely CAN play prog and he is genius keyboard player but I think he is softer! I have the RPM and it's very good BUT it IS softer! By all this I mean that his style is softer. Maybe LTE was thought to be prog-shredder stuff by Mike and John, and Jordan could fit in great, but his stuff on RPM shows another side of him - the softer! :) >>>>
Listen to RMP (what's RPM, the Rudess Porgenstein Mroject? the Rudess Project Morgenstein?) again. I would not call it 'soft' by any means: just throw some distortion guitar, blistering guitar solos, and killer bass in there and it's LTE. My friend MATt said he didn't really like the RMP album, although he liked them live, but I've been listening to it quite a bit lately, since the NEWS broke, and I think that sometimes it holds my interest better than LTE. Good stuff. And it rocks, contrary to what Mr "It's Soft!" says. How heavy do you want an all-keys-n-drums album to be? I guess he could have added some "Erotomania" like organ stuff to make it heavier, but...
And Brian mentioned: <<<<Actually this works out great for Jordan, since Derek stood in there and took the abuse of thousands of rabid Kevin Moore fans. Jordan will not be under the same fire.>>>>
This is definitely true. For so many of us, the change is an exciting one, but back in the day a change from KM to anyone else was, at least IMO, not welcomed. Damn good observations.
Now I was going to add my thoughts to the discussion, but I think it's all been said already. Simply put, I liked Derek's work with DT, but I really missed Kevin's presence on FII (particularly in the lack of WFS/SDV type pieces--sorry, but for me, AL just doesn't cut it--it's 'nice', but it doesn't move me at all). Now I don't think that Derek was solely responsible for the move towards "less-proggy" in FII, but I don't think he helped. As a classically trained keyboardist, I think I will enjoy JR's contributions more than I did Derek's, although I did enjoy Derek's contributions. However, I'm not going to expect a big return to prog, because, as I said, Derek wasn't the sole influence in moving the band "away" from prog. (What I'm reffering to here is the "skippable" [as MATt put it] less-proggy tracks like YNM, TAMP, AL, and HY as found on FII). I'm just going to sit back and wait to see what the new album sounds like.
Chris
"Thoughts forever keep me going down!" -Spock's Beard
NP: Aaaah! I'm sitting here in silence! Can you believe it?????
Oh, and may I just poke fun at the moron who was "publically embarrassing" the guy who maintains the Lines in the Sand site. Oh dear, he didn't cater to your disability. I'm sure he's turned several shades of pink in embarrassment. And well he should! I'll certainly never go visit his site now. How dare he?!? ...Perhaps he doesn't know how to make his site more accessible. Maybe he hadn't thought of it, which may be a little insensitive, but the facts are that people always take stuff for granted, like being able to see, and so thoughts about others who are not so fortunate as they are just don't occur to them, ...so get used to it. Next time, email him and ask him to do something about it. The whole public embarassment thing doesn't seem to me to be a good way of effecting a change. If it were me, I'd feel pretty bad if I got a private email that said, "I can't get anything out of your website, could you please do something to make it accessible to my webrowser so that I can see it too?" However, if I saw a message that was trying to "publically embarrass" me, I'd shrug and say "Yeah, and one bad plus one bad is??? TOO BAD!!!" Just IMO.
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 4597 **************************
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