YTSEJAM Digest 5192
Today's Topics:
1) Amorphis' Tuonela (was: Re: Xanadu Records URL???)
by Rogerio Brito <rbrito@iname.com>
2) Re:vocal debate
by Fett2002@aol.com
3) Re: Influences of NKOTB and the rest garbage
by Trent <cybertrent@yahoo.com>
4) Re: imp. facts
by Trent <cybertrent@yahoo.com>
5) Re: the ramones are even more worthless than pink floyd
by "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
6) Re: Guitarists and the National Music Show (26-28 Nov)
by "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
7) Re: Spicey MP Slops (was Stevie Z/Spelling)
by "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
8) Re: Tut (was Spicey MP Slops (was Stevie Z/Spelling))
by David_Cuthbert@Interflora.CCMAIL.compuserve.com
9) While we're still playing that "Name the Band"-Game...
by "Andreas Berger" <aberger@waf-online.de>
10) Final revision for Progpower review/pics
by "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com>
11) Lars Ulrich
by "Vandenabeele, Hein" <Hein.Vandenabeele@um.be>
12) RE: Beatles
by CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk>
13) To Stevie Z and the rest of the "Music Sucks" crew ;)
by "Jeff Storck" <jtstor@hotmail.com>
14) Re: Lars Ulrich
by Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net>
15) Refutes and Rebuttals and Apologies - Oh My!
by Giannotti Nick Contr ESC/JS <Nick.Giannotti@hanscom.af.mil>
16) Re: To Stevie Z and the rest of the "Music Sucks" crew ;)
by Marc van der Wal <M.R.van.der.Wal@cable.a2000.nl>
17) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5190
by "Daniel T. Chen" <daniel_chen@unc.edu>
18) drumming
by "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com>
19) Final Cut :)
by CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk>
20) Opinion?
by "Ivan Navarro" <inavarro@mdo.net>
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:20:45 -0200
From: Rogerio Brito <rbrito@iname.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Amorphis' Tuonela (was: Re: Xanadu Records URL???)
Message-ID: <19991117022045.C1593@iname.com>
On Nov 16 1999, MTeiper@aol.com wrote:
> NP: Amorphis "Tuonela" <-- INCREDIBLE album, BTW!!!
Hummm... How is this album, Matt? Anything similar to the
other ones? I have just been getting (again) into Amorphis
(especially the space-ish, instrumental sections of their
songs -- I really love the second part of "Brother Slayer" and
I just wished it were longer).
How does "Tuonela" compare to the "My Kantele" single? Is it
death metal? Is it rock'n'roll with death metal vocals? Is it
progressive rock with death metal vocals? Any comments would
be more than appreciated.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussions on commercial
music being evil. :-)
Thank you very much, Roger...
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - rbrito@iname.com - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/ Nectar homepage: http://www.linux.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/opeth/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:35:59 EST From: Fett2002@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re:vocal debate Message-ID: <0.ba16ad07.256398bf@aol.com>
ett2002@aol.com writes
>> Everyone is talking about James/Charlie and vocalists and such so I figured >> I'd give my opinion. Just because someone has a good voice doesn't mean that > >the song is good (this has nothing to do with those 2 though). For example, > >look at Whitney Houston. Good voice, music is crap so what's the point? Same >> with Frank Sinatra. I may be treading on holy ground here but so be it.
>Ugh, Frank. I would argue the opposite. Good songs, lousy voice. I never >figured out -- well, I did figure it out but I don't want to go swimming >with the fishes ;) -- why people love Frank so much.
>> The guy did not write one song. Good voice but what's the point if it isn't >> his own stuff?
>Oh brother. No offense but that is such a rocker point of view. I mean, >LaBrie didn't write the lyrics to almost every DT song so what's the point >singing the songs. Same with Geddy Lee. Same with tons of vocalists. Same >with most jazz musicians. Same with 99% of classical musicians. It's such a >silly thing to say. He didn't write the song, so why perform it? How can he >be good if he didn't write it? There's a difference between being a musician -> someone who performs music - and a songwriter or composer. Although a >songwriter or composer is a musician by definition, a musician is not >necessarily a songwriter or composer. How many bad bands have you heard >playing all their own stuff? They could be great musicians but lousy >songwriters.
>> I much rather hear a guy like Fred Durst sing sincerely with >> integrity than someone who just sings songs that others wrote for them.
>I don't! I don't care how "sincere" he is, if he sucks, he sucks. Just '>cause he tries hard, doesn't make him good and doesn't mean I want to >listen. Frankly, not many people do. I don't think Fred is so bad. Half the >time he doesn't even sing but when he does, he's in tune and not out of his >range. It doesn't hurt to listen to him.
>> Basically what I'm trying to say here is that you can polish a terd all you >> want but in the end it's still a terd.
>Which contradicts what you're saying above. A bad singer is a bad singer. >They can be as sincere as they want. I might clap when they get done but >it's because they had the nerve to go up there and sing even though they >suck. Not because they gave it their best or any other crap. "Wow, he's >really sincere. Too bad he sucks. Let's get him in the band anyway. People >will overlook that he sucks and tune in to his sincerity." I don't think so.
>> I prefer singing when it comes from >> the heart, and if the vocals are great than fine but if they aren't it > >doesn't meant the song sucks.
>Of course it doesn't, but it doesn't mean the vocalist is good. It doesn't >mean that you always want to listen.
--Marc R
-OK, I shouldn't have thrown that Sinatra thing in there. I just threw him and Whitney Houston in there as examples of many people''s favorite vocalists. Substitute them for any vocalist that may be considered great. But basically what I meant to say was that IMO vocals are the least important part of a song. If good/great vocals are there too then great but if not then it still could be a great song. I much rather listen to a song like that then to a crap song with great vocals. As someone mentioned, even though I've never been a huge fan, Bob Dylan has great songs but a sub-par voice so does that mean his stuff sucks? No, of course not. Also, as far as classical musicians, when ya think about it aren't they just glorified cover bands??
> Also, David Gilmour IMO is one if the finest guitarists ever. He can >> say more with one note than most guitarists can with 20. I don't think > >JP would be as good as he is without being influenced by Gilmour.
>So does that mean that JP is less of a guitarist because he's been >"influenced" by Gilmour? That's what it appears that you are saying - >that Gilmour is better because he wasn't influenced in the same way that >JP was. I don't think it's the influence of a certain person that counts, >it's what you DO with that knowledge and influence to make yourself a >better player. In this case, I feel that JP has taken all of what he has >learned from different guitarists, refined what he wanted to include in >his own techniques, and come out with a different finished product. That >doesn't mean he's any better or any worse, just that he has a different >point of view, and as such a different final technique. Nothing wrong >with that in my eyes.
OK, I was misunderstood here. What I meant was that JP was MORE of a guitarist because he was influenced by David Gilmour IMO. My intention was not to degrade JP at all. On the contrary, the guy is amazing of course. I just meant to give my view on Gilmour and I figured I'd mention his influence on JP. David Gilmour is (was) capable of conveying much emotion with only a few notes and I believe that JP is also capable of this. You can here this kind of playing particularly on FII While it isn't my favorite DT CD, it's still a good album nonetheless and has more "feeling" and less "technical" playing by JP. Take LITS for example and Peruvian Skies (which on a side note is song title I just love) .So, I am completely in agreement with you as far as JP goes. -Mike
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: Trent <cybertrent@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Influences of NKOTB and the rest garbage Message-ID: <19991117063603.1404.rocketmail@web504.yahoomail.com>
--- CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk> wrote: > The only thing NKOTB, Spice Girls and the rest > influenced is getting some people in positions to > see that it's easy money. "Wow, look at the stupid > teenagers! They get horny. Let's make some 20 more > bands consisted of 4 'cute' boys and girls"
Actually, NKOTB have been a model for a lot bands. Think about it, NKOTB were on lunch boxes, sleeping bags, they had their own cartoon show, stickers, buttons, backpacks, play dolls, the whole deal. And what happened to them? They had one or two hit albums and after that, they couldn't *GIVE* their CDs away. So, whilst not being a postive influence on the music industry IMHO, NKOTB along with Vanilla Ice did teach record labels not to authorize every fucking piece of merchandise that you attach to something or someone b/c after a while people get fed up. And with bands and music that are that disposable, getting fed up ain't a good thing.
> And they trick every generation of youngsters with > that lousy old crappy philosophy.
Well, there's only been really one generation that has had to put up with this kind of crap. The thing that irks me is that a lot of pre-pubescent girls listen to those crooning losers carry on about how much their heart aches for them (them=the girls) and they somehow think all guys have no shame or dignity. That's the sick thing. Anyways...
===== *Trent
"There's colors on the street. Red, white & blue. People shuffeling their feet. People sleeping in their shoes. There's a warning sign on the road ahead. There's a lot of people thinking we'd be better off dead. Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them. So I try to forget them anyway I can." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:45:12 -0800 (PST) From: Trent <cybertrent@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: imp. facts Message-ID: <19991117064512.26798.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com>
> 1. w/o DS, DT will continue to go nowhere......i > can only imagine that MP goes to sleep every night > kicking himself for getting rid of the ultimate sex > icon that the prog music scene has to offer. DS was > DT, and now they are nothing.
Wow, so why exactly are you still listening to DT then? Charlie and DS aren't coming back, unless things really go down the shitter or something. And just for a different perspective, I asked my g/f if DS is a good looking guy (since I'm a guy myself and wouldn't know) and she said "he looks like a fruit" (her words, not mine). I dunno why people thought he was so suggestive. Any DS Drooling Fans out there???
> 2. I am so sick and tired of people worshiping MP. > He would certainly rank at the bottom of any music > lovers list of great drummers, if he even made my > list. He just cant compare with top notch drummers > like Lars Ulrich, Charlie Watts, Tommy Lee, Alex > Vanhalen or even Kid Rock. I saw a Kid Rock show, > and that man has the most energy behind the set in > the industry.
I know jackshit about drums and music and whatnot, but I'm not so stupid as to say Mike does not have talent. I'm not just kissing his ass just b/c he happens to be a member of this list, he's just the only DT-member that you named. I've tried to play airdrums to what he plays and it ain't easy. I'm sure a real drummer on this list will agree with me. Hell, maybe even Mike himself. He makes it look pretty effortless in 5YIALT, but the truth is that it isn't easy (for me at least) to play as he does. I'm not putting down the names you mentioned (Except for Alex "I Can Be A Bigger Asshole Than You" Van Halen, Tommy "I Mixed My Wife Up With A Punching Bag" Lee and Kid "I'm Straight Out Of The Trailer Park And Proud Of It" Rock), but I like MP more than them. As for Charlie Watts, he, IMHO, *DEFINES* the term "meat and potatos" drummer. All he basically does is keep time. Definitley good, but not overly enthused about his job, or so it would seem.
> 3. And what is that low-life Kevin Moore up to > these days. Did that joke really think he was > anything without JM by his side. Last I heard about
> Moore, he was doing some hard time down in Texas for > illegal distribution of pornography. Now thats just
> pathetic even for him....i thought he reached new > lows on the Awake album, but i was wrong. He has > sunk to knew lows.
Excuse me, but what the FUCK??! I may be on drugs, but YOU are on drugs. Jesus...
===== *Trent
"There's colors on the street. Red, white & blue. People shuffeling their feet. People sleeping in their shoes. There's a warning sign on the road ahead. There's a lot of people thinking we'd be better off dead. Don't feel like Satan, but I am to them. So I try to forget them anyway I can." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:00:21 +0100 From: "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: the ramones are even more worthless than pink floyd Message-ID: <38326095.539A140E@home.se>
Adam Cook wrote:
> Thank you. According to your above statement, it is easy to conclude > this issue by pointing out that you a classic case of prog snobbery. > Obviously, in high school you were relegated to sitting in your bedroom > and feeling superior to others by listening to prog as opposed to going > out and partying. Otherwise, you would be aware that punk rock such as > the Ramones (and other uptempo music in 4/4) is designed for getting up > and moving (ie dancing, moshing, etc.) to as opposed to sitting around > and analyzing time signatures. Try to expand your horizons.
VERY well said Adam! The Ramones ROCK! I'm sorry about the one-liner (well now it's two :-)
Andreas Skarin Svenska Dream Theater S=E4llskapet [ http://sdts.cjb.net ] [ mailto:sdts@home.se ]
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:01:04 +0100 From: "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Guitarists and the National Music Show (26-28 Nov) Message-ID: <383260C0.967DF19D@home.se>
DTGirl2612@aol.com wrote:
> If you like female guitarists check out the two who were originally in > Phantom Blue Michelle Meldrum and Nicole Couch (? I think). Racer X in > female form ....
Very strange to base your music preference on gender.
Andreas Skarin Svenska Dream Theater S=E4llskapet [ http://sdts.cjb.net ] [ mailto:sdts@home.se ]
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:01:38 +0100 From: "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Spicey MP Slops (was Stevie Z/Spelling) Message-ID: <383260E2.28A0315C@home.se>
DTGirl2612@aol.com wrote:
> >From: David_Cuthbert@Interflora.CCMAIL.compuserve.com > > >> Mel C (sporty spice) has a really good voice. There, I mentioned it. > > > >I second that, the only dubious thing is she is part of a manufactured= band. > > I disagree - after hearing her sing well flat with Bryan Adams. Her vo= ice is > hardly comparable to REAL British female talent like Kate Bush or Annie > Lennox for example.
Sigh.......nobody said she's comparable to Annie Lennox. She has a good v= oice and the fact that you can't hear that validates my theory about you not knowi= ng what you're talking about.
Regards,
Andreas Skarin Svenska Dream Theater S=E4llskapet [ http://sdts.cjb.net ] [ mailto:sdts@home.se ]
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:04:45 -0500 From: David_Cuthbert@Interflora.CCMAIL.compuserve.com To: "INTERNET:ytsejam@torchsong.com" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Tut (was Spicey MP Slops (was Stevie Z/Spelling)) Message-ID: <199911170505_MC2-8D6C-112F@compuserve.com>
> which I eased with a nice can of Bud on the train home.
Can? only bottles please.
David C
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:20:54 +0100 From: "Andreas Berger" <aberger@waf-online.de> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: While we're still playing that "Name the Band"-Game... Message-ID: <01bf30e5$6ed8a8c0$LocalHost@p100>
Steffen wrote:
>Well, then you probably wouldn't have recognized the music in >Hamburg/Hannover. Played lots of Slayer there ;-)
I wasn't in Hamburg, but I think that wasn't Slayer but Grip Inc. Don't just listen to the drums! ;-)
Take Care, Andreas
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:22:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul W. Cashman" <vanyel@crl.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Final revision for Progpower review/pics Message-ID: <199911171022.AA18183@crl.crl.com>
I've uploaded the final version of my review of Progpower, photo index, and a general summary of the journey (my first overseas trip ever :)). I wish I'd had more time in Netherlands; I could have seen a DT show or two and possibly Nightwish or Ozric Tentacles. Oh, well, my first foray into Europe was to become a whirlwind trip, to test the waters.
Great to meet fellow Ytsejammers, #ytsejammers and some folks from Perpetual Motion, including Mark Metzger, Dennis "StiX" Leeflang, Graham "GaZ" Borland, Charlie from the UK, David (of moremetal.com) and his wife, Bart/"Bobke," and of course our musical contingent: Bernd "Hades" Basmer of Superior, Erik "M-Erik" from Mayadome, Marcel C. from Lemur Voice, and many others who aren't Ytsejammers -- yet, anyway....like Hildy from Belgium, Tom of Evergrey, Daniel from Pain of Salvation, Martijn, and a big "Erp!" to Gregoor Van Der Loo of Lemur Voice. :)
http://www.crl.com/~vanyel/images/progpowr
-- + Paul W. Cashman vanyel@crl.com www.crl.com/~vanyel ICQ #4151223+ | Rush * Robert Jordan * Godhead * Michael Moorcock * Changelings | | James P. Hogan * Dream Theater * Robert Heinlein * NIN * Dead | | Can Dance * Patrick O'Brian * Ozric Tentacles * Raymond Feist....|
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:17:02 +0100 From: "Vandenabeele, Hein" <Hein.Vandenabeele@um.be> To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Lars Ulrich Message-ID: <F999CB08F9C7D21195E30008C70D3506CC4396@julia.um.be>
MyrBones@aol.com wrote:...
<list. He just cant compare with top notch drummers like Lars Ulrich, Charlie
Hey, I can imagine that you are offended. Not saying if you are right or wrong on the previous posts, but comparing MP to Lars Ulrich IS a joke. Ulrich is known because he plays in a famous band (and because he talks a lot, too :) ), but he would definitely NOT be known/popular without Metallica. Furthermore, he IS a sloppy drummer. Ever been to a Lars Ulrich drumclinic ? Me neither :) ... Anybody else an opinion on this ?
Take Care
HeinV
PS. I have almost all Metallica albums (even on vinyl !!!) except for the last ones, of course.
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:29:29 +0100 From: CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: RE: Beatles Message-ID: <383204F9.6501BCD2@mol.com.mk>
> From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@biccgeneral.com> > Subject: RE: Beatles > > I think I'll volunteer to be the moron on this one. I understand > that the Beatles had a major impact on music, and I respect their > contribution....But, IMHO, the "Beatles sucks [sic] and Abbey Road > is [a] crappy album." Of course, I'd normally be more diplomatic > about it, but you all heard him, he double dared me! :) Anyway, > like I said, I respect their contributions to music, but I find > most of their stuff unlistenable.
BRAVO, bravisimo! You see? This is the way to say it! :)
Therefore I officially take away the "moron crown" from your head and it rests shortly, expecting its next carriers.
> I guess that would imply that they were, to me, > good composers/song writers, but not good musicians....
You see the smart kid? He didn't fail to add "TO ME" part! Althought he did say rubbish! :)
P.S. Thanx to all about the x/8 rhythms explanation. Appretiate it.
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:07:58 EST From: "Jeff Storck" <jtstor@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: To Stevie Z and the rest of the "Music Sucks" crew ;) Message-ID: <19991117130758.34381.qmail@hotmail.com>
>From: Steve Zebrowski <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu>
>I am very sorry for saying that "[Music is] for musicians." Everyone >certainly has the right to buy whatever music they please. > >What I meant (and how I think most people took it) was "MAKING music is for >musicians."
I don't like this talk. :) It was said here before that anyone can make music. And if other people like that music, then great, because that satisfies a portion of the two sides -- Musicians and Listeners (The Musician and the Listener?) For example, I love the Smashing Pumpkins. Probably not too many people here will agree with me here, but I think Billy Corgan is a creative sunuvabitch, and plays guitar with a lot of style and feel. I also really like Elastica and Bjork. I don't even know if Bjork plays an instrument (besides her voice) but I would certainly call her a musician, though she probably hasn't gone to school for it (though I suppose she might have).
I never say someone in the music biz has no talent -- It's not for me to say. I'm not a music snob, but I am a tone snob. :) The bottom line for me is, "If people like it, let 'em. If I don't, then turn it off."
I'm not naming names or pointing fingers, but still, some of you guys on here really ARE progsnobs, and that's just sad. No music is superior in form to another. It's a matter of personal preference (as we all know) and what I think kicks ass, others may think it sucks.
I don't want to start a war by bringing this up, but it's just like religion. No one can say their religion is right over someone else's. It's faith and belief. Just like I don't like Johova's (sp?) Witnesses coming to my door and pushing their beliefs and faith on me, I don't want Matchbox 20 coming into my house and making me listen to their CDs and tell me, "Our music is the One True Music."
It just seems absurd to me, people raising prog above all other styles of music (or maybe no one is saying that, and I'm misreading things). It certainly is not the most popular style of music.
>Imagine what the reaction would be if I had said I *gasp* LIKED Derek >Sherinian... >(Tomorrow there will be a dozen posts saying "Well, THAT explains >everything...") > >Steve Z
You know what? I really did like DS in the band. :) I also liked KevMo... Rudess has mad talents, but I just can't get into his playing like the other two guys. I don't even like to listen to LTE 1 or 2 much anymore, because I'm tired of his keyboard's sounds, and what I would describe as a circus-like style of playing. Go ahead, shoot me. :) I must admit, his rhythm playing on SFaM is nice, but I am not into his solos anymore... :)
Jeff
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:29:55 -0500 From: Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Lars Ulrich Message-ID: <3832BBE3.265BB83B@yunque.net>
"Vandenabeele, Hein" wrote:
> MyrBones@aol.com wrote:... > > <list. He just cant compare with top notch drummers like Lars Ulrich, > Charlie > > Hey, I can imagine that you are offended. Not saying if you are right or > wrong on the previous posts, but comparing MP to Lars Ulrich IS a joke. > Ulrich is known because he plays in a famous band (and because he talks a > lot, too :) ), but he would definitely NOT be known/popular without > Metallica. Furthermore, he IS a sloppy drummer. Ever been to a Lars Ulrich > drumclinic ? Me neither :) ... Anybody else an opinion on this ? > >
Well, i recently watched their orchestrated show, and actually i was very impressed by the whole thing. Anyone else seen it? BUT i also noticed how sloppy lars is! specially his footwork. All i could think of was "damn i wish i could get Mike portnoy and lars ulrich into a drum showdown , in front of all of those metallica fans who blindingly think lars is god... mainly because portnoy would frigging DESTROY lars.
--
Without love, without truth, there can be no turning back. Without faith, without hope, there can be no peace of mind. Carlos Alfaro Internet Solutions Inc. mailto:calfaro@yunque.net mailto:prog@musician.org
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:14:20 -0500 From: Giannotti Nick Contr ESC/JS <Nick.Giannotti@hanscom.af.mil> To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Refutes and Rebuttals and Apologies - Oh My! Message-ID: <390762D98D63D2118C280060081358CC01466978@hamsxha2.hanscom.af.mil>
Steve Z wrote,
>I am very sorry for saying that "[Music is] for musicians." Everyone >certainly has the right to buy whatever music they please. >What I meant (and how I think most people took it) was "MAKING music is for >musicians."
I apologize for jumping the gun as I did and not reading between the lines on this. I do agree with the 'making music is for musicians' statement. And I certainly hope you can see the reason I *did* jump the gun. :) No biggie, though. And yeah, a-ha rocks. Coming out with a new album soon, too, from what I hear. :)
Then, CyberDuke wrote,
>Example: > >FACTS, THE TRUTH: >- Pat Metheny is one hell of a guitarist and IS a legend. I RESPECT the >man greatly. >- Miles Davis is god in jazz music, the world doesn't need me to agree >or disagree - THAT IS THAT!
Says who? One man's religion is another man's myth, Duke. Just because person A says that Icon A is a God and should be worshipped - and a sizable proportion of the population agrees with person A - doesn't mean that person B has to accept what he says as etched in stone. Especially when your statements are SUPPOSED to be fact and, in reality, aren't. Look at it this way:
- L. Ron Hubbard is a prolific author. - L. Ron Hubbard wrote the definitive doctrine on religion, and the world doesn't need me to agree or disagree - THAT IS THAT!
Now, I know there are some people on this list who will agree with the above statement. There are some that will not. Those that do, yay. Those that don't, yay. You know what? It's all personal opinion (which, according to Websters Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, is defined as "a view, judgement, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter), and there is no way - NO WAY - that an opinion about the statement "Tyketto is the best of the Hair Metal Bands of the 80's" can be considered incorrect, whether only one person agrees with an opposing point of view or a million people do. The same applies to PF - just because someone on this list doesn't like them doesn't mean it's WRONG for them not to like them, despite the size of the PF fan base. Maybe I'm missing out on something. Maybe I'm not a better person for listening to them and watching the Wizard of Oz at the same time. Oh well - I choose not to.
>Errrr, are you tryin' to tell me the US constitution is the PERFECT one >and that we should all govern by it?
Not at all - just reminding you that I can voice my opinion anytime I want, regardless of who thinks it's completely asinine. :)
>"If million people jump and drown in the river should I do the same?"
I don't know - is this why you listen to Pink Floyd? :)
Nicholas Giannotti x6745 Joint STARS Contracts / JSK System Resources Corporation giannottin@hanscom.af.mil
"Build a man a fire, he is warm for a day. Set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life." "Who gossips to you will gossip of you."
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:18:56 +0100 From: Marc van der Wal <M.R.van.der.Wal@cable.a2000.nl> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: To Stevie Z and the rest of the "Music Sucks" crew ;) Message-ID: <3832B950.7D140D38@cable.a2000.nl>
> You know what? I really did like DS in the band. :) I also liked > KevMo... Rudess has mad talents, but I just can't get into his playing like
Am I the only one that likes all three of them?? I admit that their styles are different from each other; they emphasize different aspects of music. But to me that's what Dream Theater is all about, their music is very diverse.
I don't wanna turn this into another Kevin vs Derek vs Jordan thread. I just want to point out that the differences are not as dramatically as some people on this list tend to think.
Marc
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:30:46 -0500 From: "Daniel T. Chen" <daniel_chen@unc.edu> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5190 Message-ID: <3832BC16.BD150F1F@unc.edu>
Ben wrote: > > Does anybody here from over-seas have the new, and only, Control Denied? > Any reviews? Thanks
Control Denied sounds like a very strange concoction of Death meets Spiral Architect. The vocals are really high-pitched and certainly detract from the overall "spiciness" of the tone.
I decided to stay far, far away. This however does not imply that they are difficult or bad-- just that my tastes have yet to "grow" in that direction (and this is coming from someone whose tastes include opera and gloom/doom/European death/thrash ;-).
-d
-- Daniel T. Chen chenda@cs.unc.edu NP : Tristania - Lethean River
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:04:00 PST From: "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Cc: MyrBones@aol.com Subject: drumming Message-ID: <19991117150401.42236.qmail@hotmail.com>
> He just cant compare with top notch drummers like Lars Ulrich, >Charlie >Watts, Tommy Lee, Alex Vanhalen or even Kid Rock. I saw >a Kid Rock show, >and that man has the most energy behind the set >in the industry.
if you're anywhere near Detroit, you need to try and catch a howling diablos show....they get the whole band going on percussion instruments, a six-drum showdown.....it ain't prog by a long shot, but it's fun to watch......
partha
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:32:20 +0100 From: CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Final Cut :) Message-ID: <3832A054.4373E2D@mol.com.mk>
> From: Trent <cybertrent@yahoo.com> > > You speak the truth, but to try assert that Pink Floyd > are undeniably the greatest band ever is going to get > denied by fans of any other band. This is subjective.
You're right! But I said that I only used the extreme case just to pinpoint something. And that in no way it was subjective matter.
> Well unless I'm sorely mistaken, this mailing list is > based in America and Skadz is an American. That would > mean this this list is governed by the laws of the US > theoretically.
The discussion had nothing to do with the place it's taking place, owner, moderator or whatever. The point of the whole debate was something else. That some things are objective no matter what some folks think on the issue.
Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Yes, Led Zeppelin, and tons of others (and DT soon joining the crew) - these are all remarkable people in music, they did left something behind, they are legends etc ... Giving some silly narrowminded personal reasons (for exmaple) why Bach sucked or how Ian Anderson is the most unimaginative person in the world is biggest stupidity.
NP: Frank Zappa - Sinister Footwear (sick stuff)
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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:10:57 -0500 From: "Ivan Navarro" <inavarro@mdo.net> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Opinion? Message-ID: <000e01bf3116$58a1bf20$76035a8c@nws.noaa.gov>
I'm sorry CyberDuke but I have to agree with Nick on this one. Although your view may be shared by many, many people, it is still not a FACT. Let me add some *fact* here, please.
]From WEBSTERS New Riverside University Dictionary:
Opinion: 1. A belief or idea held with confidence but not substantiated by direct proof or knowledge. 2. An evaluatin or conclusion based on special knowledge or expertise <a medical opinion> 3. A judgement or estimation of the value or worth of a person or thing <had a high opinion of the new director> 4. The common, usual, or prevailing view of sentiment <public opinion> 5. Law....[not applicable here]
A FACT would be: PF has sold ### million records and has been on the chart for ### years.--This can be substantiated by direct proof.
An OPINION (Albeit 'public opinion') would be: PF is one of rock-n-roll's greatest bands.--This statement meets the criteria defined above.
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:09:19 +0100 > From: CyberDuke <duskob@mol.com.mk> > To: ytsejam@torchsong.com > Subject: PF > Message-ID: <3832003F.8DA3FE1A@mol.com.mk> > > > > From: Giannotti Nick Contr ESC/JS <Nick.Giannotti@hanscom.af.mil> > > >Because there's difference. We talk about facts, not tastes. > > >And that "PF are one of the greatest bands ever and has impact in the > > >music" is a fact! > > > > Claiming that a band is 'one of the greatest bands ever' > > is COMPLETELY subjective. > > Nope! SOME things ARE objective. > And I just can't imagine how anyone could understand this as MY personal > taste! > You know well what I mean, don't turn it the other way around. > I'm not speaking here of my stupid tastes and opinions.
..
> Example: > > PERSONAL OPINIONS AND TASTE: > - I HATE Pat Metheny; > - I can't stand Miles Davis and that kind of jazz music; > > FACTS, THE TRUTH: > - Pat Metheny is one hell of a guitarist and IS a legend. I RESPECT the > man greatly. > - Miles Davis is god in jazz music, the world doesn't need me to agree > or disagree - THAT IS THAT! > --------------------------------------- > > Can you see the difference? This is my point, and THE ONLY POINT I try > to make.
No, I personally don't see much difference. They are merely opposite opinions. Sorry.
I-Man
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5192 **************************
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