YTSEJAM Digest 5133
Today's Topics:
1) My final Hayden Radio Points Pt. 2 (and final)
by Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
2) TFS Delivery Failure: YTSEJAM digest 5132
by administrator@itsyourlife.com
3) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5132
by "Guido Mercati" <mercatig@iol.it>
4) Re: WTF?
by Amanda Rosenblum <mildew@ucla.edu>
5) Re: How to attract fans in reality
by "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
6) Re: SFAM ***SPOILERS!!!***
by "Art Ellis" <artellis@mindspring.com>
7) Re: How to attract fans in reality
by Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net>
8) somebody made a mistake
by "Schnipp -" <schnipp@hotmail.com>
9) radio play
by Adam Cook <ac003i@mail.rochester.edu>
10) #11!!!
by Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu>
11) sup
by Frank Velez <apyfc@usa.net>
12) Re: Make your ranting factual
by Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
13) M2 -SFAM I got it
by Holger Hoffmeister <Holger.Hoffmeister@gmx.de>
14) dt website
by "Heikki Kemppinen" <hkemppinen@hotmail.com>
15) This will stop (sorry everybody:(
by "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net>
16) Under Canadian Skies?
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
17) This will stop (sorry everybody:(
by "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net>
18) Re: WTF?
by "TheCowGod" <demccor@clemson.edu>
19) I figured I would correct myself.
by "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net>
20) Re: My final Hayden Radio Points Pt. 2 (and final)
by Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
21) Re: My final Hayden Radio points, pt. 1
by Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 03:41:57 -0500
From: Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: My final Hayden Radio Points Pt. 2 (and final)
Message-ID: <19991024034157.B46198@enteract.com>
Brian went on:
> hyperbole on my part. But, most people, unfortunately, haven't heard of DT
> and don't care, so there's no reason for them to play the song just because
> 400 people sent them the same harassing email.
As I've said, people should be allowed to make up their own minds
(and I mean that in THE REAL WORLD, so please don't counter with something
about how that's not the way it works). And if 400 e-mails isn't a DAMN
good reason to play a song, I can't come up with a better one. I simply
can't. It fits the market, it's tight, it's of reasonable length, and
there's clearly a group of people who DO care. I think the point YOU are
missing, is that in responding to what may have been somewhat of an
inappropriate letter on Al's part, the radio station has the
responsibility to make the situation clean and pretty, to keep a listener.
All they would have had to do is say "we've discussed it, and we really
don't think the song fits what we're aiming for. I hope you understand."
but in this case, I think this Nick guy is a COMPLETE ASSHOLE, and Al was
simply a bit out of control. The customer is always right, so make him
feel that way, even if you have to prove him wrong. And the listener IS
the customer, when it comes down to it, whether or not you can admit it.
You have a lot of brain cells. You can ignore it when you lose a few.
When you lose a lot you die.
> They play here once in a while. No, they don't sell out, and they're not
> playing a large venue. Yes, obviously their biggest problem is
> underexposure, why wouldn't I accept that?
Because, though you will probably deny it, you are fighting
AGAINST what is inherently a reasonable attempt to get them some exposure.
Before you DO deny it, look at your sent mail. Humor me. Unless you're
just trying to ensure that you walk away from this debate vindicated,
you're going to see that the stuff you're spouting is aimed at getting
people to give up trying to get the band exposure, with the exception of
one or 2 posts, where you say "go for it" before telling us all that it's
futile, vain, and is some weird need to validate our opinions.
> First, there were only a couple of requests, then there were a bunch of
> holier-than-thou mini-lectures on the state of music.
Again with the same point. We all agree on this. Maybe address
why the first few requests were met with open hostility on "Nick's"
behalf.
> Uh, I never said they'd turn it off forever. Don't put words in my mouth. I
I didn't put words in your mouth. I was just making a point. I
didn't say that you said anything... which is why I think you ought not
fall back on the "you're not reading what I said" defense you whip up
later.
> "Lastly, I take offense to your statement regarding "trying to get your
> opinions validated." That's a low shot, and it's also clearly not
> something that someone who gives a shit about the band would say."
>
> What's your logic for this? Yeah, I think it'd be great if they had a
> platinum album and were on the radio. They make cool music, and it'd be
> cool to see 'em get some recognition for it. And yes it's cool to hear
> music you love on the radio. But, a) without label support it just ain't
> gonna happen, no matter how many requests hit some radio station and b) the
> tactics here were totally stupid and just antagonized the people that they
> were supposed to elicit help from.
Look at the paragraph I wrote, and tell me how you want me to
answer your first question below it. The rest of that whole paragraph has
NOTHING to do with your question, or the statement that brought it about.
I don't know how to make what I said there any more clear.
> "You don't have to try to help DT get airplay if you don't want to, but
> what kind of person are you to supress people who are trying to get them
> played?"
>
> Again...I'm not trying to, and if you think I am, you're not reading
I think YOU'RE not reading what you're posting.
------
I apologize for the obscene length of this message, but I think it's
totally relevant, and is undoubtedly DTC. I know this thread must bug a
lot of you, so for my part, I will not post on this topic again, and will
allow Brian to have the last public word. I'll only continue outside this
list. Thanks for reading.
- Chris
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 4:55:00 -0400
From: administrator@itsyourlife.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Cc: administrator@itsyourlife.com
Subject: TFS Delivery Failure: YTSEJAM digest 5132
Message-ID: <TFSDXLOK@itsyourlife.com>
Your message to the following recipients was undeliverable:
mnawrath@itsyourlife=2Ecom=20=
*****************************************************
Administrator
Newton Memorial Hospital
Tel: 973-383-2121
Internet Address: a@itsyourlife=2Ecom
Home Page: http://www=2Eitsyourlife=2Ecom
*****************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:15:42 +0100
From: "Guido Mercati" <mercatig@iol.it>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5132
Message-ID: <199910241115420090.003F11C1@mail.iol.it>
You all,American fans,are too trendy to understand and love an album like=
Metropolis II.
I don't care if other trendy people like or don't like the new single=
Home...I like it 'cause I've listened to DT for years...I'm a=
prog-mind...I love James LaBrie just because he the most innovative and=
marvellous singer in the "M"usic history!!!!!!! Compared to him other=
vocalists,even good ones,are nothing. I love Mike Portnoy just because=
he's,right now,the greatest drummer on Earth!!!!!! John Petrucci -shred=
and feel- is just perfect,even too pefect!!!!!! Myung the more solid and=
amazing bass player around in prog!!!!!!!!!
I don't care about the new,trendy,silly problems of the new,trendy,silly=
fans:DT are owned by the hearts of the die-hard fans!!!!!!!! The other=
don't even deserve to listen to a so much incredible=
"M"usic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Metropolis II:Scenes from a memory is the best album ever made by 5 men in=
a band. Definetely the absolute masterpiece in modern music history. *****=
+++++
GUITAR CHEF
c/o Guido Mercati
via Ilario Tabarri,5
47100 - Forl=EC (FO)
Italy - Europe
http://auditorium.it.fortunecity.com/strumento/4
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 02:44:28 -0700
From: Amanda Rosenblum <mildew@ucla.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: WTF?
Message-ID: <3812D4FC.2D5E9D3B@ucla.edu>
Someone said:
> Errrrr....... ummmmmm........ are you missing something here Brian? I
> believe AL, myself, and every other jammer (except yourself) want DT to
> get played on the radio for the BAND'S benefit (so they sell more
> records), NOT so WE can hear the damn song.
Not to get in the middle of the Al & Brian sandwich, hold the mayo:
Not me. I don't even listen to the radio. Chances are I won't be
listening to it any time soon. It'd be kinda cool to hear DT on the
radio, just so I can say "Wow guys, guess what I heard on the radio?"
but that's about it. I don't think the Home radio edit is spectacular
enough to bring in hordes of new, adoring fans. Let's say,
miraculously, that they play Home on the radio in every major city in
the US. Many people are impressed and buy the album. I bet half the
people here advocating radio play for DT would be emailing the jam on
how the band sold out. Now I'm not gonna start whining like a former
Mansonite, but I kinda like the small group of loyal jammers. I like
the fact that when I wear my FII shirt, people ask me who Dream Theater
is. I like playing Awake for my friends and watching their reactions at
how this good of a band isn't "popular".
In other words, I'm a selfish woman. I want to hear the song for ME,
and I don't care if my roomate the rabid Blink 182 fan ever hears it!!
But of course she will. And so will the rest of my floor. Repeatedly.
~~Amanda
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:54:58 +0200
From: "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: How to attract fans in reality
Message-ID: <3812D772.5117C7FD@home.se>
Dan Wait wrote:
> I play DT for all my friends... prog is just not most
> people's cup of tea. It's too complex for most people.
> Sadly, BS hip-hop is king of the world at the moment.
>
> Now it's story time:
> I bought Rush's "Hold Your Fire" b/c I liked 'Time
> Stand Still'... haven't heard them on the radio since
> the 80's, but I remembered that song and on a whim got
> the album. Since they friggin rule, I checked out
> web-sites and stuff... and learned about DT, Fates,
> QR, Vai, Satch, Deep Purple, LTE... Now I have an
> extensive collection of prog and prog/like (Satch
> might fit here) stuff.
I hate to sound stupid but, who is this Satch character?
-- Andreas Skarin Svenska Dream Theater Sallskapet http://sdts.cjb.net - mailto:sdts@home.se------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 06:13:09 -0400 From: "Art Ellis" <artellis@mindspring.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: SFAM ***SPOILERS!!!*** Message-ID: <001301bf1e08$600e8840$3d21f7a5@com>
Somebody Wrote: >I also wish that they would keep some common themes constantly going >through the entire album
You need to listen to the CD again. There are a few themes repeated, the riff from Met1 in a different key, and some of the vocal melodies are used in the chordal melodies, and vice versa.
~~Art Webmaster http://www.joestump.com
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:14:42 -0400 From: Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: How to attract fans in reality Message-ID: <3812EA22.72C32B47@yunque.net>
"sK@RRe" wrote:
> > I hate to sound stupid but, who is this Satch character?
Joe Satriani, awesome guitarrist.
--
Without love, without truth, there can be no turning back. Without faith, without hope, there can be no peace of mind. Carlos Alfaro Internet Solutions Inc. mailto:calfaro@yunque.net mailto:prog@musician.org
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:01:26 CEST From: "Schnipp -" <schnipp@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: somebody made a mistake Message-ID: <19991024130126.33371.qmail@hotmail.com>
hi all, my last post didn't make it through, although it was spoiler free, unlike posts of other european jammers who couldn't keep their mouths shut. Anyway, Mike, how could you overlook that their are now two SDV'S?? That's major, imho. Apart from that, I think I'll turn off, since the bitching has already started (HELLO MATT), but others already jumped in. NO, I am not declining you an opinion, but I don't like your arguments. later,seb
thanks DT, NP: strange deja vu
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:35:21 -0400 From: Adam Cook <ac003i@mail.rochester.edu> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: radio play Message-ID: <38130B19.1AA8973B@mail.rochester.edu>
> From: Joe DeAngelo <jdeangelo@home.com> > Subject: Radio play....
> Mr. Hayden said: > > Face it, we all think DT is damn cool, but most people just > > don't dig that kind of music. > > Well somehow DT managed to sell 500,000 copies of Images and Words in > America alone, probably 90% based on the radio play garnered by "Pull Me > Under" (I remember when it came out, for a few weeks the two songs that > probably got THE MOST radio play on Z-Rock Houston were PMU, and "Plush" > by Stone Temple Pilots....... they played the shit out of both).
Why can't you people understand that this is NOT 1992?? Pull Me Under came out at the tail end of the 80's rock era when a vocal style such as James' was still widely heard and accepted. Even though grunge had infiltrated the system, a band such as Dream Theater was not totally coming out of left field as they are now in 1999. Although a riff such as the one in the beginning of Home is more modern and 90's sounding...fact is DT is still a band with high melodic vocals and most people's ears just scream "80's rock" whenever they hear a singer who (god forbid) can actually sing high melodies. MAYBE I'm wrong, but I get the general impression that this single has already had its chance and has already been passed over by most radio stations.
> > Personally, before I got my first DT disc, (which is now my favorite > band based SOLELY on hearing PMU, and later CiaW a LOT of times on the > radio), I was (to quote you, Brian) "most people". At the time, I was > mostly listening to Van Halen, Metallica, and Guns N Roses (all very > popular, fairly mainstream bands back then in '92-'94), and I'd never > even heard of prog. > > - Joe D.
Exactly my point. You were listening to rock bands that were born in the 80's (in the case of Van Halen, late 70's). That is very different music than what kids today are listening to.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:53:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com (Ytsejam Mailing List) Subject: #11!!! Message-ID: <199910241353.JAA23857@ruby.cs.brandeis.edu>
Wow... I was just checking out CDNow's top 100 (http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=1531735934/pagename=/RP/TOP100/index.html) and SFaM is just 1 away from gettings if picture up there (thats number 11)... That is very impressive... Now, the question that comes to my mind is, what does this list mean? Is it just pending shipments (meaning that everyone who pre-ordered counts as 1, and that the CD could drop out of the list come Tuesday) or is it total requests?
If it is pending shipments, it still is impressive, but SFaM will probalby drop from the lists existance soon...
Now, if its overall orders... then -- well, some radio stations will have some explaining to do... :)
-- +--------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | In the stream of consciousness | Lines In The Sand, taken from | | There is a river crying | Dream Theater's | | Living comes much easier | Falling Into Infinity | | Once we admit We're dying | | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------+ Michael Burstin: mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb/ Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email: http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------
Date: 24 Oct 99 08:43:42 MDT From: Frank Velez <apyfc@usa.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: sup Message-ID: <19991024144342.6778.qmail@.netaddress.usa.net>
hello people..im FrankY...new here, well just to check this out....i love= DT kix ass...has beautiful music and lirycs!
c'ya
____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:56:27 -0500 From: Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Make your ranting factual Message-ID: <B438884B.460%hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
> Brian tried to sxpose Al as bring a dork by re-posting: >> "If your head was someplace other than your ass, you too would realize I >> CAN'T PLAY IT IN MY CD PLAYER UNTIL IT'S RELEASED!" > > Yet forgot to include himself saying: >> Fridays. I agree completely with what he said...if you like the band so >> much, put 'em in your damn cd player. > > You're the one who brought up telling Al he should play his CD instead. Al > was simply stating that he CAN'T because the CD isn't released yet. Stick > that in your ass and wipe it. > > Now you're going to go on and spout "CD? MP3? What's the fuckin' > difference!?!?!?! Korg, you dumbass!!!"
I don't see your point....yeah, that's what I said....and yeah, that's what I'll say... :)
-Brian
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:46:07 +0200 From: Holger Hoffmeister <Holger.Hoffmeister@gmx.de> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: M2 -SFAM I got it Message-ID: <381329BF.129B7204@gmx.de>
Just wanted to tell you all, that I found in a lot of dutch shops the new record on saturday. Now I am listening to it all day long - god it is soooo complex. I discoverd a completly new world to submerge into. (ufff, wasn't that a 19/16???) Mike said recently in Rotterdam "It is the album I always wanted DT to make" - It was not something said to promote the album, he was right.
enjoy the last day of your life before M2 - it will never be the same
Greetings from sunny Germany, Holger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:50:27 GMT From: "Heikki Kemppinen" <hkemppinen@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: dt website Message-ID: <19991024155027.29213.qmail@hotmail.com>
a few weeks ago there was a post by a guy, who had made a website called "under argentinan skies". can anyone remember the url?
______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:00:36 -0500 From: "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net> To: retaehT maerD <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: This will stop (sorry everybody:( Message-ID: <38132D24.970D9E72@isd.net>
I'm washing my hands of this 93X argument with Brian Hayden. It's doesn't belong here in the first place , but even if it did, I'll be damned if I'm going tit-for-tat with someone that needs to color his side of the story by conveniently leaving out key elements when he quotes previous messages.
Brian, you obviously have an axe to grind, and I want no part of it. If you continue to push me, I'll bury that axe in your leaking skull. Got it, Bubba?
-- Al - The Ytse-ProGtologist ^ Switchcraft Microsystems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This subject is CLOSED
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:02:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu> To: ytsejam@ax.com Subject: Under Canadian Skies? Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9910241201440.90094-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
Has the Under Canadian Skies site (previously dreamtheater.dhs.org) gone away? I happened to load it up last night and got a DT BBS instead...
------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu http://cout.dhs.org/ Cloak on IRC ICQ: 2513441 ------------------------------------------------- The only stupid question is the one that is never asked, except maybe "Don't you think it's about time you audited my tax return?" or "But officer, isn't it morally wrong to give me a warning when, in fact, I was speeding?" -------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:10:05 -0500 From: "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net> To: retaehT maerD <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: This will stop (sorry everybody:( Message-ID: <38132F5D.683E8BD3@isd.net>
I'm washing my hands of this 93X argument with Brian Hayden. It's doesn't belong here in the first place , but even if it did, I'll be damned if I'm going tit-for-tat with someone that needs to color his side of the story by conveniently leaving out key elements when he quotes previous messages.
Brian, you obviously have an ax to grind, and I want no part of it. If you continue to push me, I'll bury that ax in your leaking skull. Got it, Bubba?
-- Al - The Ytse-ProGtologist ^ Switchcraft Microsystems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This subject is CLOSED
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:16:23 -0400 From: "TheCowGod" <demccor@clemson.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: WTF? Message-ID: <002101bf1e3b$1d4f4020$702010ac@clemson.edu>
]From: Amanda Rosenblum <mildew@ucla.edu> Subject: Re: WTF?
> Mansonite, but I kinda like the small group of loyal jammers. I like > the fact that when I wear my FII shirt, people ask me who Dream Theater
when i wear my Awake shirt, people don't ask me who DT is. they laugh at the pussy band name. :) my biggest struggle working at the radio station, WSBF, has been trying to convince everyone that, despite the "pussy name", DT is actually really cool and doesnt play the kind of music everyone expects them to based on the name :) moo.
*** END OF TRANSMISSION ***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:19:42 -0500 From: "Al @ Switchcraft" <al@isd.net> To: retaehT maerD <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: I figured I would correct myself. Message-ID: <3813319E.7E3261A2@isd.net>
BTW, The "AXE" spelling was my feeble attempt at humor. But I figured I'd better correct myself with the second post before I got accused of not knowing how to spell. I just figured you guitar players would get a kick out of that.
-- Al - The Ytse-ProGtologist ^ Switchcraft Microsystems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When you live in the land of 10,000 lakes, it's nice to know that all men are created equal in cold water.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:43:36 -0500 From: Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: My final Hayden Radio Points Pt. 2 (and final) Message-ID: <B438A168.463%hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
And part two...
> As I've said, people should be allowed to make up their own minds > (and I mean that in THE REAL WORLD, so please don't counter with something > about how that's not the way it works). And if 400 e-mails isn't a DAMN > good reason to play a song, I can't come up with a better one.
Whoooooooooops....typo on my part there, first of all. I meant 40...that list that Al posted was somewhere in that vicinity, I'd estimate. It may have been more, but it doesn't really matter. I don't think even 400 emails would be a good reason, when they're obviously coming from some organized group which likely doesn't even listen to your station. Does anyone think that the people who read the mail at that station are stupid? When they have a caustic exchange like that with one person, then two people...then all of the sudden there's a FLOOD...they know exactly what's going on. Count on it. Even 1000 letters wouldn't do it in that situation.
> inappropriate letter on Al's part, the radio station has the > responsibility to make the situation clean and pretty, to keep a listener. > All they would have had to do is say "we've discussed it, and we really > don't think the song fits what we're aiming for. I hope you understand." > but in this case, I think this Nick guy is a COMPLETE ASSHOLE, and Al was > simply a bit out of control.
See, I would be tempted to agree with you. Yes, the people at the station should have handled themselves better, especially whoever made the "we don't like it, so we're not playing it" comment initially, if it was said that way (even though it amounts to about the same thing as "we've discussed it, and we really don't think the song fits what we're aiming for. I hope you understand," it could have been phrased better).
However, let me remind you Chris that we all get upset and make bad decisions. I've seen you really go off on people in the past, I've done it, most of us have done it. Yes, that Nick dude should have kept his cool, customer relations, all that...but I can totally understand where he's coming from, giving the insulting, lecturing email he was getting. Think about Matt's religion analogy...it's hard not to start getting vehement at some point when the same people keep bothering you about the same thing. Maybe I'm just more forgiving of people who blow their stack. I've learned that it happens all the time.
>> They play here once in a while. No, they don't sell out, and they're not >> playing a large venue. Yes, obviously their biggest problem is >> underexposure, why wouldn't I accept that? > > Because, though you will probably deny it, you are fighting > AGAINST what is inherently a reasonable attempt to get them some exposure. > Before you DO deny it, look at your sent mail. Humor me.
I humored you...and yes, I can see where one of my emails would have given that idea, and I said in the post just previous to this one that it was a poorly considered statement.
> Unless you're > just trying to ensure that you walk away from this debate vindicated, > you're going to see that the stuff you're spouting is aimed at getting > people to give up trying to get the band exposure, with the exception of > one or 2 posts, where you say "go for it" before telling us all that it's > futile, vain, and is some weird need to validate our opinions.
See, you're confusing two entirely different issues. Let me break it down, and hopefully we can move on:
1) There are people who sent emails whining about how music with "talent" never gets a chance. These people, I think, are seeking validation and need to deal with that problem. This side of the effort is vain in the sense of arrogant.
2) There are people who sent simple requests because they want to hear it or want other people to have a chance to dig it. This debate for me is not about these people. Yes, I think it's likely futile, especially with the "Hitler Radio" tone established at the outset, but by all means give it a shot and more power to ya if they get play. This side is probably *in* vain, and I'm not going to change my mind on that, but I don't care if anyone does it either, and if this is what it had all been about from the beginning I never would have said a word.
Tell me if I'm not making sense. Because if I'm not, there's some kind of fundamental communication problem here.
>> Uh, I never said they'd turn it off forever. Don't put words in my mouth. I > > I didn't put words in your mouth. I was just making a point. I > didn't say that you said anything...
Read the following, which comes from that post of yours:
Chris - "I just don't think what you said is accurate. I have never heard a full hour of radio in which something wasn't lame. So if someone dislikes DT, so be it. It won't be the reason they turn the station off forever."
If I never said it, why do you say it? What point were you making? You presented it like it had been part of my argument, when it has nothing to do with anything. Obviously nobody will turn it off forever. But they MAY change the channel or put on a CD or whatever, which is what I originally said:
Brian - "If you play a song in regular rotation that is probably going to make half your regular listnership turn off the radio...that's bad news for advertising." (Let's remember I already said that the "half" thing was hyperbole. It's been addressed.)
>> "Lastly, I take offense to your statement regarding "trying to get your >> opinions validated." That's a low shot, and it's also clearly not >> something that someone who gives a shit about the band would say." >> >> What's your logic for this? Yeah, I think it'd be great if they had a >> platinum album and were on the radio. They make cool music, and it'd be >> cool to see 'em get some recognition for it. And yes it's cool to hear >> music you love on the radio. But, a) without label support it just ain't >> gonna happen, no matter how many requests hit some radio station and b) the >> tactics here were totally stupid and just antagonized the people that they >> were supposed to elicit help from. > > Look at the paragraph I wrote, and tell me how you want me to > answer your first question below it. The rest of that whole paragraph has > NOTHING to do with your question, or the statement that brought it about. > I don't know how to make what I said there any more clear.
Answer it how you want. And if you think that paragraph I wrote has nothing to do with the first sentence, I'm going to have to say again, you're not reading closely enough. Let me break it down for you:
1. You said I "clearly don't give a shit about the band."
2. I said...huh?? Explain this.
3. I said, "they make cool music, and it would be cool to see 'em get some recognition for it." By way of illustrating that, yeah, I do give a shit.
4. I elaborated on (3) in the specific context of this discussion.
So am I just smoking crack or what? I thought this was clear. And I still don't know what you mean about "giving a shit about the band." What does that have to do with people seeking validation? I'm honestly, completely lost here. Explain the link to me.
-Brian
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:43:38 -0500 From: Brian Hayden <hayd0029@tc.umn.edu> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: My final Hayden Radio points, pt. 1 Message-ID: <B438A16A.464%hayd0029@tc.umn.edu>
Okay folks...my reply, part one and two to Chris' posts, which I was going to take private but there are some mistakes and misconceptions I think on both of our parts and I want to adress them publicly...after this, everything else is private.
> From: Christopher Ptacek <someone@enteract.com> > Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:51:07 -0700 (PDT) > To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> > Subject: My final Hayden Radio points, pt. 1 > > > Brian says: >> counterproductive to do it in such a confrontational manner, > > Absolutely, 100% agreed, by all parties. No need to dwell on this > point. Address some of the other issues.
*1) This was my main point to begin with and people kept dragging it into side issues and not adressing this, which is why I felt the need to keep pointing it out.
>> and that most >> people, like it or not, don't want to hear the song anyway, so who are you >> to say it should be played, you who won't even ever listen to the station? >> This is a pretty obvious line of thought, I would think. > > This is a pretty ignorant line of thought, I think.
Okay, I'll back off on that one. Now that I consider it more, yeah, it's pretty crappy. Although, I think we can all admit there's probably a kernel of truth to it...if people really had a desire for stuff like this, BMS, which did get a fair amount of exposure on the radio, would have done the trick.
>> Like I said....harassing someone won't change a damn thing. Even getting >> the song on won't change anything. > > Bullshit. It's the only effect we are hoping for.
Oh please. Go back and read some of the emails to the station which people posted here, Chris. They were basically about the state of the music industry and saying that this station should quit being part of the problem and start bucking the system. Maybe getting the song played really is the only thing anyone was hoping for...if so, then these mini-lectures were dishonest in and of themselves. It's one or the other.
> not in a "prog" or "technical" way, but in a musical way. How is that > unreasonable, considering the style of the song, and the style of music? > Have you heard Home?
Yes, I've heard the entire album, and, as other people have said, I really don't hear anything about "Home" which would excite most people.
> As for "The people in power," who the fuck cares about them?
When it comes down to it, those are the people who can a) get the song airplay and/or b) change the current bullshit music industry (yeah right). All the people sending those emails to 93X about how they want to change the world either care, or were lying at the time. Talk to them, not me.
> I > want to get this music to the high school freshman who is in his second > year of rock drum lessons; to the Kiss fan who likes dramatic music; to > the open minded people who don't tell their friends what they can and > can't like.
If this is who people want to get the music to, they should have been honest and said that in their requests. Maybe you did, I don't know. BTW, yes, I know there were many people who just sent simple polite requests, probably including Chris, and I'm not talking about you in this discussion. I'm talking about the people who pasted their mile long whining, insulting requests here. I know you can't control what other people say, Chris. The fact that some people were ignorant and harassing has nothing to do with you...except that THOSE are the people who are hampering your effort, not me. Talk to them, get it straightened out, and do your thing, if you want to do it, instead of wasting time on this.
> Your little radio station WILL be sold and WILL change > formats. No one really cares about the station, since in that respect, > it's MOST ASSUREDLY out of any listener's hands (when Evergreen Media > decides they want a station, they GET the station).
Thank you for acknowledging this...it was my other main point aside from the issue of tactics. Letters to the station sounded like declarations of some kind of indignant rebellion, like these people wanted to overthrow the music industry...and we all know that getting a song on the radio is not going to do it. Those diatribes, aside from insulting the intelligence of the reader, also make one look downright silly.
And as a side note, it's been sold and changed formats three times in the last 5 or 6 years...and it's not "my little station." Heh...I haven't listened to it regularly since the middle of the summer (not coincidentally, about the time our other rock station changed format...there was a definite shift towards safe MTV crap after that). I don't like most of the crap they play. I listen to it maybe once every couple weeks. Now...
> We want DT to have a > CHANCE with a demographic that they can and do appeal to... not a change > in the demographic's tastes, or an influence on their lives, but a CHANCE.
Well, if that's what people meant then people should have written that to begin with, because I don't think anyone has a problem with it.
But the fact is, when any debate like this comes up in this forum, it's clear that some people here are arrogant and assume they hold the grail to musical taste. They talk of "converting" the unwashed masses through repetitive play of songs. "Woooohooo! Everytime I've gotten in the car with my brother in the last three years I've put on I&W, and today he said that Wait for Sleep really isn't that bad of a song! I think that's my third conversion this year! Now, help me make a good Fates mix tape that I can play for the next three years." They want to change people's taste to meet their own, not just give it a chance. Frankly, it's silly, childish, and insulting.
>> Do you honestly think that playing DT is going to attract any more >> listeners to their station? > > They honor other requests that I am sure don't do anything to > attract listeners to the station.
Actually, from my experience trying to hear stuff on this station, they only seem to honor "requests" for things which are in heavy rotation. For example...even though they've played "Peace Sells" here and there in the fairly recent past, if you called up and requested it right now, I can almost guarantee you it would not get on, unless you called during that Nick guy's metal show. Then you'll have a chance.
And this is hearsay, obviously, but from what I understand most major FM radio stations work this way, especially during the day and even more so during drive time. A request of a song that they're not really playing anyway, especially one that nobody has ever heard, is just not going to be played. If you call up and request it at, say 2am, you might actually get it on...but don't stake your life on it. If people want to go about this the right way, start with stations which have request shows, as Amanda pointed out, or stations which do late-night metal shows.
>> And exactly how is calling people fascist and ignorant and unenlightened >> and blah blah blah going to get them on your side? Let's think about this. > > Don't cop out of the point being made. You said people are > striving for validation, which I believe is untrue. You're clinging to > this one thing about "you're being mean, and it's not gonna help" which we > all agree upon... address some of the other issues.
I've already addressed my reasons for handling it that way above (see *1)...but if you want to get off on tangents (and yes, I know, I know, I really introduced this one myself with the validation comment)...okay, here's what I made the comment in reference to, from Pat:
> I don't think it's about validation. At this point, I'm more interested > in trying to counter that DJ's perception that DT is a "has been" > band. Don't you think that a little musical exposure and/or positive > word-of-mouth in the mainstream media would go a long way > toward countering that (false) perception?
No, I really don't think it would, because as other people have also pointed out your average schmo rock fan today will hear DT (sadly, some won't even hear, they'll just see the long hair and clothes and go on that), and think "how 80s" and still think they're a has been. How about Slaughter? Their last song was about the time of PMU. They put out a new single in the middle of the summer, which was like "Home" in that it was still classic metal style (popmetal in that case) but with a little modern flavor...it was played in pretty heavy rotation for a week or two, and then it utterly disappeared. Yes, we make a big distinction between the two bands, but most don't. Most of the people listening to a station like this want to hear new things that are in the vein of LB, Powerman 5000, Godsmack, etc, and nostalgic stuff from the late 70s/80s. So no, I really don't think there's much that can change that perception for your average person, unfortunately.
Given the tone of some of the emails to the station which were posted here, and given the complex some people around here have about being "persecuted" for liking their music and trying to "convert" people, I really do think for some people it's about validation. How many times have we seen people whining in this forum about how they don't get any respect because they like prog or metal, people talking about crusades and conversions...I stand by that validation comment Chris, whatever you say about it being offensive. I don't think it applies to you; I have more respect for you than that. But I don't think it's off the mark for other people here.
-Brian
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5133 **************************
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