YTSEJAM Digest 5124
Today's Topics:
1) TFS Delivery Failure: YTSEJAM digest 5123
by administrator@itsyourlife.com
2) Re: New album live *SPOILER*
by Adam Pye <alpine1@mindspring.com>
3) Jordan's keyboard clinic
by Ryan Park <rpark@space-dye.com>
4) Re: New album live *SPOILER*
by Eddy Huisman <Eddy@jem7bsb.com>
5) Re: Godsmack
by Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
6) free servers?
by "Virgil Starkwell" <flandersland@sinectis.com.ar>
7) Fwd: please play...
by Wes Foll <follwes@sc.llu.edu>
8) Guster
by YtseSryche@aol.com
9) Definition of progressive rock?
by Rob Grant <robgrant@mediaone.net>
10) burning my soul, wrenching my guts...
by Chris Oates <coates@objy.com>
11) Marillion?
by Steffen Barabasch <TheMirror@westend.com>
12) Re: No place like home
by JamesAhab@aol.com
13) Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta
by JamesAhab@aol.com
14) Re: new album cover (no spoilers)
by "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se>
15) Analog/Digital, once again for Chris and Al...
by Jay Omega <jomega@legarto.minn.net>
16) Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta
by Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net>
17) Analog/Digital, Part 2 of 2 :)
by Jay Omega <jomega@legarto.minn.net>
18) Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta
by JamesAhab@aol.com
19) several from 5123
by Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu>
20) Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta
by Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 4:49:04 -0400
From: administrator@itsyourlife.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Cc: administrator@itsyourlife.com
Subject: TFS Delivery Failure: YTSEJAM digest 5123
Message-ID: <TFSUDWGY@itsyourlife.com>
Your message to the following recipients was undeliverable:
mnawrath@itsyourlife=2Ecom=20=
*****************************************************
Administrator
Newton Memorial Hospital
Tel: 973-383-2121
Internet Address: a@itsyourlife=2Ecom
Home Page: http://www=2Eitsyourlife=2Ecom
*****************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:43:02 -0400
From: Adam Pye <alpine1@mindspring.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: New album live *SPOILER*
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991021171505.0171a340@pop.mindspring.com>
*SPOILER*
At 01:41 PM 10/21/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>. And then I read LaBrie say this: "...but by then, the album will
>sell and we can do an incredible show; do the entire album start to finish
>live; do it on stage in a big way. "
I saw this too, but if there's one thing I dread from this new concept
album, it's that they play the whole thing start to finish at every
show. They have so many tools now with Jordan in the band that I think it
would really be a shame if 70 minutes out of about 140 of every show is
taken up by the complete new album. I'm sure it will be embellished and
"jammed out", but I just think it would reduce the energy of the show if
everyone knew pretty much what was coming for the next hour. I'd so much
like to see some improvisational work by these guys - they're such
unbelievable musicians that I think they could come up with some amazing
stuff that we've never heard the like of before..
As far as SFAM goes, I'd REALLY like to see them do what they've done with
ACOS, with a little twist. They've done an _excellent_ job placing
different parts of ACOS as segues into other songs. "ACOS 1/2 -> Puppies
-> JLMB" (mid-late FII tour) was great, as was "Scarred -> ACOS VII ->
Ytsejam" (early-mid FII tour). It'd be great to see this with pieces of
the new album, especially the instrumental(s). As for the "twist," I think
it would be kick ass to have the whole album to be played only once in
awhlie, as kind of a special occasion. Maybe it could replace Nightmare
Cinema or Nicky Lemmons as the "rarity" played only in certain cities. (Aw
yeah..)
I think half the fun of going to a show is not knowing what you're going to
see when you get there. I think playing the whole album every night (ala
Fates on the APSOG tour or QR on the Empire tour) would really take away
from that..
All this said, SFAM is EXCELLENT! Great job guys... It's not like I'm
going to complain either way... :-)
Adam
_________________________________________________
Adam Pye
alpine1(-at-)mindspring.com ICQ: 41032734
http://www.mindspring.com/~alpine1
^^ Above URL for tapelist and FTP site info
__________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Park <rpark@space-dye.com>
To: ytsejam@ax.com
Subject: Jordan's keyboard clinic
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.991021143740.31460A-100000@pluto.he.net>
I was at Jordan's keyboard clinic in Wheaton, MD last night. He played
three or four full songs from the Rudess-Morgenstein Project disc, as well
as tons of other snippets of other material. It was more like a two-hour
Kurzweil K2600 sales pitch than a general keyboard clinic, but it was
definitely worth it.
I don't have time for a full recap of the clinic, so let me give you a
couple of highlights.
Someone asked Jordan how Dream Theater writes music -- do they jam
together? Do each of them bring in certain songs? etc. Jordan said that
a lot of times he and John Petrucci would write riffs and things together.
He said that Mike would often overhear part of a riff -- say, three notes
-- and immediately create a whole song based on it in his head! Mike
would tell them, "OK, play it, again faster, then reverse..." and end up
tediously explaining a full-length song! Jordan described Mike as "the
ultimate movie director" :)
<possible minor spoiler>
Regarding the portion of "Home" which sounds kinda like Tool's "46 and 2":
Jordan said that that riff was one that John Myung came up with on his
own. If you've got questions about it, ask John (if you think you'll ever
get an answer from him! <g>)
Jordan played bits and pieces of the new album -- a lot more than I was
expecting to hear. There were things about it which I liked, and things
which I didn't like. At first I thought that the keys were mixed horribly
low on the album; then Jordan turned some knobs on the soundboard and all
of a sudden it felt like the keys were mixed horribly high <g>. Overall,
I suspect it'll be a great album, and I can't wait for next week!
<end spoiler>
Bill -- who were you?
Ryan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:05:57 +0200
From: Eddy Huisman <Eddy@jem7bsb.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: New album live *SPOILER*
Message-ID: <380F8E45.E544B118@JEM7BSB.com>
In Dutch magazine Aardschok in an interview with Mr. Portnoy he also
mentions that they want to play the whole album in one go. Only if they
perform as support act they will have to do it a bit different. They
would like to do something special with the stageshow but this all
depends on the budget
Eddy Huism@n
http://www.JEM7BSB.com
Adam Pye wrote:
>
> *SPOILER*
>
> At 01:41 PM 10/21/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >. And then I read LaBrie say this: "...but by then, the album will
> >sell and we can do an incredible show; do the entire album start to finish
> >live; do it on stage in a big way. "
>
> I saw this too, but if there's one thing I dread from this new concept
> album, it's that they play the whole thing start to finish at every
> show.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:22:17 -0500
From: Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Godsmack
Message-ID: <19991021.172223.11878.0.Kurt.Hampton@juno.com>
"-maybe all the Godsmack evens it out, I dunno...those
guys have to be the biggest AiC ripoffs I've ever heard".-
Right down to the riffs, the lead singer's voice, hell even the logo. The
GS logo is nothing more than the AIC logo off of the indside cover of
"Dirt" with Godsmack written on top of it. Even their name is a direct
ripoff, Godsmack is track #6 on "Dirt"
Dirt is a kick ass album though.
Kurt
NP-Queensryche:Operation Mindcrime
"and though it leads to nowhere, you part debris and keep on
going"-Doubledrive
New Dream Theater "Scenes From a Memory" out Oct 26th
"I don't know how the guys in Slayer are going to past 40"-Paul Blocker
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:14:11 -0300
From: "Virgil Starkwell" <flandersland@sinectis.com.ar>
To: "Ytsejam List" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: free servers?
Message-ID: <003b01bf1c1a$eb103aa0$118010c8@matute>
I need a free site where i can upload some mp3 bigger than 500k.
Someone know if this is possible?
Thanxx!
C-ya
_______________________________
Check my DREAM THEATER site!
http://www.underargentinaskies.com.ar
"When I was kidnapped, my parents snapped into action.
They rented out my room."
(Woody Allen)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:02:00 -0700
From: Wes Foll <follwes@sc.llu.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Fwd: please play...
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991021165925.00996280@sc.llu.edu>
I just tried a sneaky way of asking for Home to be played on 93x...see
below. 8-) Of course, I just so happen to really like Rage Against the
Machine as well, so I killed two birds with one stone kinda.
Also, for some reason I'm really diggin on that band Creed. I bought my
wife the two albums they have out, and have been listening to them and they
have really really good, solid songs. There are some great non-radio
played tunes on these cds...check them out too sometime.
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:59:06 -0700
>To: mail@93x.com
>From: Wes Foll <follwes@sc.llu.edu>
>Subject: please play...
>
>Hiya,
>
>Just had a coupla song requests for ya:
>
>The new one by Rage Against the Machine (can't remember the name, I've
>only heard it once,
>and the new one from Dream Theater called "Home." Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------
I wonder how much deeper the oceans would be without sponges.
What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an
endangered plant?
Wesley Foll, Geology B.S., Loma Linda University
follwes@sc.llu.edu
wfoll00g@ns.llu.edu
beavis@ytseradio.com
ICQ #4550740
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:08:32 EDT
From: YtseSryche@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Guster
Message-ID: <0.d799892e.25410500@aol.com>
Hey, I know all you guys are looking for a second coming of dream theater,
but I found something that kinda changed that. It's a COMPLETELY different
type of music, but maybe you guys would like it seeing as I love prog, and I
love these guys too. You might have heard of em, but they're called Guster. I
don't if any of you are interested, but their webpage is www.guster.com and
if you want more details just ask me. They're just an awesome band and I
think everyone should hear em if you're ready to move on and try something
different. (plus their cds are only 10 bucks, brand new, no shipping, you
can't lose!). e-mail me bout em if you're interested.
Tony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:55:35 -0400
From: Rob Grant <robgrant@mediaone.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Definition of progressive rock?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991021205535.007a0430@pop.mw.mediaone.net>
This is something I've been thinking about for a long time, but I can't
come up with anything...what do you consider to be the definition of
progressive rock?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:59:28 -0700
From: Chris Oates <coates@objy.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: burning my soul, wrenching my guts...
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991021175928.00943390@objypop>
Actually, nothing to do with the song BMS, just a silly title
One of our favorite persons in the whole world said:
>> There isn't a gut-wrenching YOU MUST BUY THIS ALBUM vibe about it.
>
>Every single piece of music Dream Theater creates has a
>"gut-wrenching YOU MUST BUY THIS ALBUM vibe" to it.
To you, maybe. But to the world, no. And that was the topic of my post.
The average new listener is not going to hear the _radio_edit_ of Home and
feel a strong desire to buy the album.
And really, your statment is pretty ludicrous. To say that you like every
DT song is fine -- I like them all too. But to say that each one has the
"magical gut-vibe" about it seems to indicate that you put more weight on
the "Dream Theater" label applied to the song than to the actual music
itself. A fan who cannot criticize is not a fan, it's a groupie.
~Chris
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 03:19:22 +0200
From: Steffen Barabasch <TheMirror@westend.com>
To: Ytsejam <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Marillion?
Message-ID: <v04210100b43563813402@[192.168.1.1]>
>The last time I saw Marillion live I was treated to one of the finest nights
>of Music ever. If anyone gets the oppertunity I wouldn't miss it, cos they
>really rock out Live.
The last time I saw Marillion will be my last time ever. They started
their show with seven of the most boring and stupid songs of their
last three albums, which I happen to hate, so the evening started the
worst way possible. And it didn't get a lot better. They took
Splintering Heart, one of the most powerful and dynamic songs on
Holidays In Eden and removed all the power and dynamics by playing
the same repetitive riff on and on and on... maybe that's their new
direction, playing stuff as boring and dull as possible, I don't know.
I only know that I don't expect anything from these guys anymore.
They are still a first class band, incredibly tight and powerful on
stage, but their music is NOT. It's a shame since albums like
Clutching At Straws (their best with Fish, one of the greatest albums
I know) or Brave (despite its many flaws one of the most intense
concept albums I know) are so exceptional.
Steffen
-- Steffen Barabasch (mailto:TheMirror@westend.com)------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:35:13 EDT From: JamesAhab@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: No place like home Message-ID: <0.835a1931.25411951@aol.com>
>< I really didn't like the radio edit, and I hope it doesn't color my perception of what otherwise would be a very rocking full length song. I wish I hadn't heard the radio edit. Some of you might not want to download it, and wait for the full thing. On that point, I don't think I'd like to hear the radio stations playing this song. Since most of you agree that the radio edit is not exactly a tribute to DT, I'd rather not have people saying "Oh, so THAT'S the Dream Theater people have been talking about. Well gee diddly, they suck." ><
I heard the full version first, loved it, heard the edited version, and still liked it. Given, edited version doesn't do it justice, but i still like it. and i think if any typical radio listener can get by the vocals, they will like it. its very tool-like, and theyre popular, so if they like them, they can like this. not that this will be their "break-out hit." theyll never have one. i thought you not me might do it, but that didnt hit, none of their singles will hit big.
jim
np - enchant: blueprint of the world
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:41:18 EDT From: JamesAhab@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta Message-ID: <0.462890b9.25411abe@aol.com>
>< Anyone have Mayadome's 'Near Life Experience', of the even better Clockwork's 'Surface Tension'? Both are on smaller lables and have to be ordered through some place like The Laser's Edge, but both are absolutely great albums that would leave most everyone around here laying in a puddle of drool. And, yes, both stack of pretty favorably to THE YARDSTICK. ><
I found Clockwork's album at a Tower Records in Philly. Could be because they're local, and that's how they got signed to The Laser's Edge (based in Jersey). I like that album, although there are a few vocal melodies that get on my nerves.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 03:47:21 +0200 From: "sK@RRe" <sdts@home.se> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: new album cover (no spoilers) Message-ID: <380FC229.512625CB@home.se>
Andrew Coutermarsh wrote:
> Well, actually, if one puts a file in their web directory on a server, it > is literally fair game. If I decide to search around someone's website > for certain filenames and find them, even though they're not linked to > anything, that's still okay, since it's THERE. Anything that you put in a > publicly available web directory is 100% fair game, because it's > technically public information at that point.
You can't be serious? You are probably one of the guys who have disrespected the band spreading mp3's, album covers and lyrics on the net. If you read my reply carefully you will notice the following sentence that explains why it's disrespectful to snoop around, I quote myself: "You're trying to sneak a peak at something that obviously is not meant for you to see".
Even if you can do it, it doesn't mean it's ok. At least not for people familiar with the word "ethics". A woman is at a party and she leaves her handbag on a bureau by the entrance, do you open it and snoop around just because nobody's watching?
Andreas Skarin Svenska Dream Theater Sallskapet http://sdts.cjb.net - mailto:sdts@home.se
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:50:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Omega <jomega@legarto.minn.net> To: Just Words <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Analog/Digital, once again for Chris and Al... Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910212046060.21178-100000@legarto.minn.net>
[ack! I'm too talkative. This message had to be split in half...]
On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Al @ Switchcraft wrote:
OK, once again, and my last words on the subject...
> Chris Oates wrote: > >Digital Vs Analog: > >To the guy who said that increasing to 96 bit would mean 300+ decibels of > >sound: > >As much as I enjoy arguing against Al (grin) -- you've missed the point > >here. adding to the bits in a digital stream does not necessrily mean more > >high volumes. What it means is a higher resolution -- more discrete steps > >in the same decibel range.
Not true. I'll get into this below...
> >Think of it like switching from 22 Khz to 44 > >Khz sampling rate. Youy don't get something twice as long, you get > >something with twice the subtlety.
Actually, a change in digital sampling rate doesn't affect 'subtlety' at all. It just affects the maximum frequency of the sound/signal you can record. Nyquist Sampling Theorem. 19Khz is 19Khz, whether you record it at a sampling rate of 38KHz or 380KHz. With proper D/A conversion there will be absolutely no difference.
> > And that's where Digital falls behind > >the ultra high-end analog gear. > > Thank you Chris! I was trying to think of a way to enlighten him without > slamming him. One needs to understand the differences between amplitude, > bandwidth, and resolution, before applying reasonably good math skills to what > appears to be a modest grasp of science as it applies to audio reproduction.
I think you misread my argument, and probably because I worded it poorly, and spread it throughout my post. I'll put it all together below...
[I most certainly _do_ know the difference between amplitude, bandwidth, and resolution, and used them correctly in my last post. I just didn't make it clear enough for the reader. :-) ]
> The unnamed Jammer needs to understand that while Bruce Dickinson may > not have the technical expertise to word his argument in such a way that > would have all the EEs bowing at his feet, he's been around a few recording > studios and has first hand experience with both analog and digital in their > highest form.
And his preference is obvious. I have no problem with that. He likes analog. Cool.
But, if the little grey men gave me a complete tour of their flying saucer, I wouldn't tell NASA how to design rockets, even if I had seen it and they had not. Being amazed by the saucer, I might believe it superior to NASA's engineering. But, if I don't know how the saucer works, and I don't know how the Space Shuttle works, I could be wrong.
"Being there" is not always better than objective knowledge.
> Maybe he should go back and carefully read ALL of the page he quoted from.
I read it through the first time. :-)
> http://www.theabsolutesound.com/dvdhope.htm
> Hint: The decibel figures he was quoting was the dynamic range above the > noise floor (signal-to-noise ratio) not the practical limits of the media.
The ranges I/he was quoting (96dB for 16 bit digital, 144dB for 24 bit, 384dB for 64 bit, and 80-85dB for analog vinyl) most certainly _are_ the practical limits of the media. They are _also_ the absolute level of volume needed to get the full benefit of these practical limits. See below...
> Mr. Green is very careful with his wording, and makes it quite clear that the > NEWEST digital media is ALMOST as good as analog in terms of sonic accuracy.
He makes it quite clear; analog has 85 dB of resolution, current digital has 96 dB, and "future" digital has 144 dB. He does let his preference for analog show through. Again, I have no problem with people preferring analog. I just don't like it when they say it's objectively better than digital. Which Mr. Green doesn't. He states with facts and numbers that digital is superior, while stating with pretty words that analog is pretty good stuff, too. He's correct. (in shorter phrases, I agree with what he says, but not how he says it.)
> He also explains that the lower noise floor of digital is outweighed by the (at this > time) unavoidable harmonic distortions introduced by the process when the > signal levels are low. He should really go back and read that article carefully.
Unavoidable at this time, if "this time" is the mid-1980s or so. Read the next couple paragraphs after that; adding "dither" to the signal eliminates these harmonic distortions. And no, I don't understand the math behind _that_ all that well; not well enough to explain it, at least. :-)
> Before getting all excited about the "new" digital media, I recommend he READ > the author's buried disclaimer found in the very article he provided the link for.
I read it. I recommend you read what he wrote after this. He explains away most of this "disclaimer". The parts he does not explain away, he should not explain away. Again, I'll codify it below...
> Robert E. Green wrote: (author) > "Most of the discussion in the main article has been based on theory - on the > theoretical information capacity of the various digital standards. But we don't listen > to theory, and it is natural to ask how well the theory can be put into practice. In > particular, is true 96 kHz/24bit recording really possible? Is it available now? And > what about 96/24 playback?"
And I agree with almost every technical point he made _after_ this; basically, that our current technology in the _analog_ part of the recording and playback chain cannot deal with this level of _digital_ accuracy.
[the argument I said was "below" is now in my next posting....]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:56:50 -0400 From: Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta Message-ID: <380FC462.39954644@yunque.net>
JamesAhab@aol.com wrote:
> >< Anyone have Mayadome's 'Near Life Experience', of the even better > Clockwork's 'Surface Tension'? Both are on smaller lables and have to be > ordered through some place like The Laser's Edge, but both are absolutely > great albums that would leave most everyone around here laying in a puddle of > drool. And, yes, both stack of pretty favorably to THE YARDSTICK. >< > > I found Clockwork's album at a Tower Records in Philly. Could be because > they're local, and that's how they got signed to The Laser's Edge (based in > Jersey). I like that album, although there are a few vocal melodies that get > on my nerves.
I feel this way too, i had both their demos (and forever lost?) and weaving webs of time , but i know im alone when i say id rather listen to the old vocalist ( which wasnt really a vocalist just their guitar player doing vocals) than that new screechy guy...
--
Without love, without truth, there can be no turning back. Without faith, without hope, there can be no peace of mind. Carlos Alfaro Internet Solutions Inc. mailto:calfaro@yunque.net mailto:prog@musician.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:55:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Omega <jomega@legarto.minn.net> To: Just Words <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Analog/Digital, Part 2 of 2 :) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910212050110.21178-100000@legarto.minn.net>
[part 2 of 2. :) God, I'm a geek.]
Back to the argument I tried to make in my previous post:
1) Dynamic range can be limited by the media: 96dB for 16 bit digital, 144dB for 24 bit, 384dB for "64 bit", and 80 to 85dB for analog vinyl.
2) Except at the temperature of absolute zero, _everything_ is moving. Even if there are no sound waves or "wind" in the air, the air molecules themselves are always moving. This is called Brownian motion. Our ears _could_ be delicate enough to hear this motion; it is not physically impossible. However, God/Evolution designed us so that we _don't_ hear it (it would sound like random white* noise; the sound made by a TV tuned to a nonexistent station). Thus, our hearing has a lower limit, just above the sound of Brownian Motion. This limit has been selected to be "0dB" on the scale of 'absolute' amplitude.
* - or pink noise, if you prefer. No difference to my statement.
3) Approximately the same thing happens in electrical circuitry; there is thermal noise from randomly-shifting electrons in resistive components. It is not an absolute level; it runs about 140dB below the "actual signal" in the component. (OK, it has an absolute level, too, but that very low level is always swamped by the signal-dependent noise.)
Let's look at what this implies. Suppose we want to listen to our music at a maximum (absolute) level of 120dB, because we own stock in a hearing-aid company. :-) We set our amp so that this is true. Using (1) and (2) above we see:
- An analog record will have useful information between 40dB and 120dB, due to it's 80dB resolution. Everything from 0dB to 40dB will still be coming from the stereo, but it will be noise actually recorded on the record. From 0dB on down, you can't hear due to the lower limit of human hearing, even though there's noise at this level encoded as well.
- A 16 bit CD will have useful information from 24dB to 120dB (96 dB resolution.) Everything from 0 to 24dB will be noise from the stereo, due to the fact that you can't encode a "fractional number" into your 16-bit word. it's either 1000 or 1001, not 1000.5. Again, everything from 0dB down we can't hear, and even if we could, it would be swamped out by the Brownian motion of the air.
- A 24 bit CD will have useful information from 0 to 120dB. It will also have "information" down to -24 dB for a total of 144dB of resolution. This information will never make it out of the speakers, as it is below the level of the random motion of the air. Compared to the numerical problem above, the difference here is that we can actually encode to the accuracy of "1000.5," but the air adds a random number between -1 and +1 to every sample, so that "1000.5" might hit your ears as either 1000 or 1001. (Or, think of the difference between throwing a pebble into a still pond, or throwing one into a hurricane-tossed ocean. 0dB is the point in between where you can say "I think I saw a ripple".)
- Bruce's "64 bit" CD will have useful info from 0 to 120, and wasted info down to -264 dB. Same as the 24 bit case, but more waste.
- If we "turn down" our output, to, say, 60 dB max, all 4 methods will have real info from 0 to 60 dB, and anything below that will, again, be swamped by the Brownian motion of the air and the lower limits of human hearing.
So, when I stated that "You'd have to listen to an absolute level of 384dB" for Bruce's recording, I was overstating my case. You can listen at an absolute level of 96dB if you want. But it will be indistinguishable from a 16 bit CD. To "realize the gains" of this "technology," you need to listen at 384.
[One other point I should make, to forestall the "obvious" argument that usually follows this revelation: There is no difference between the output of these recordings at 60 dB max amplitude. The fact that 384 dB > 96 dB does not mean there's more "detailed" information in the output between 0 & 60. If there was an absolute cut-off (truncation) of the signal below 0, there would be. But, the "negative dB" portion of the signal is still output by the stereo... and the random noise of the air is added to that. Email me if you want a big equation/table type thing proving this; my post is too long as it is, :-) and most people can see it for themselves.]
[Also, I have left out actual "noise" in the environment. If you are breathing, or there's traffic two streets down, or some other environmental noise is present, you can't even hear what's coming from the stereo down to 0 dB. That's just the absolute limit. But this isn't required for the current discussion, as it's just a change in the noise floor.]
However, given point (3) above, you really won't even get to the speakers with the full signal from a 24 bit or 64 bit recording; the thermal noise floor of the circuit itself limits you to, at best, 140 dB of dynamic range. Assuming a "real world" mass-produced amp, this is probably more like 120 dB. That's what the "author's disclaimer" was alluding to (that, and the 60 dB or so resolution of good speakers, etc.) He says the same thing I say; 16 bit CD is not the best thing we can record (although it's still objectively more accurate than analog); but 24 bit digital is better than we can reproduce. And, without God's own speaker system, even analog is "better than we can reproduce". :-)
In other words, listen and enjoy, be it vinyl, tape, CD, AM radio, whatever. I can't say what sounds best to Al, or Chris, or Bruce Dickinson, or Robert Green. As Phil Collins said, "I know what I like, and I like what I know." And no more than that.
Just don't break out an incorrect math & physics argument to "prove" the superiority of analog.
> I rest my case...
And I mine.
--Jay "Feels like one of his college profs, looking out across all the 'Jammers he has lulled into a technobabble-induced sleep..." Omega --NP: Ayreon - Into The Electric Castle
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:06:48 EDT From: JamesAhab@aol.com To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta Message-ID: <0.e83d1f37.254120b8@aol.com>
>< I feel this way too, i had both their demos (and forever lost?) and weaving webs of time , but i know im alone when i say id rather listen to the old vocalist (which wasnt really a vocalist just their guitar player doing vocals) than that new screechy guy... ><
I don't think he's a bad vocalist, not veyr screechy, but his delivery sometimes - and only sometimes...it's halfway between singing and talking.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:09:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Burstin <mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: several from 5123 Message-ID: <199910220209.WAA17860@ruby.cs.brandeis.edu>
> From: "Trevor W. Hoit" <TrevorW@ms.kallback.com> > Subject: vanden plas > > Where is everyone getting the new Vanden Plas? > The only place I can find online is cdeurope for US$22.95.
Well, they are going to be having a US release for this CD -- I ordered it from CDNow a few days ago... Due out Nov 9th or something...
> ------------------------------ > > From: "Marvin Williamson" <marvin_w@hotmail.com> > Subject: Wicked City > > Something nasty, Something pretty, Come inside my Wicked City. >
> http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/56/wicked_city.html
Is this Queensryche clone even on Ytsejam? These daily spams are getting old... Should forward this to abuse@hotmail.com
> ------------------------------ > > From: DarthMetze@aol.com > Subject: Another comparision (major spoilers). > > Listen to these files...sound similar? > > <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/DarthMetze/home.mp3">http://members.aol.com/Da > rthMetze/home.mp3</A> > <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/DarthMetze/metropolis1.mp3">http://members.aol > com/DarthMetze/metropolis1.mp3</A> > > Heh heh...this is so cool.
Hmm... you noticed? :)
> ------------------------------ > > From: Amanda Rosenblum <mildew@ucla.edu> > Subject: Re: Johns AWAKE era acoustic? > > I'm sure I'm going to feel very dumb for this later, but hey, I > haven't had much sleep so deal with it.. I can't even think of any > Awake era songs that have acoustic guitar on them. In fact, the > only DT song at all that comes to mind is Hollow Years. If you > wouldn't mind the fact that the picture was taken at last year's > Christmas concert in New York, I have a pic of JP playing acoustic > during Hollow Years.
Well, Silent Man, I think they did LSoaD all acoustic (forget)
Actually, I think Silent Man was the electric version...
-- +--------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | In the stream of consciousness | Lines In The Sand, taken from | | There is a river crying | Dream Theater's | | Living comes much easier | Falling Into Infinity | | Once we admit We're dying | | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------+ Michael Burstin: mikeb@cs.brandeis.edu http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~mikeb/ Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email: http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:19:18 -0400 From: Carlos Andres Alfaro <calfaro@yunque.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Life beyond DT and Magna Carta Message-ID: <380FC9A5.9FD75E1@yunque.net>
JamesAhab@aol.com wrote:
> >< I feel this way too, i had both their demos (and forever lost?) and > weaving webs of time , but i know im alone when i say id rather listen to the > old vocalist (which wasnt really a vocalist just their guitar player doing > vocals) than that new screechy guy... >< > > I don't think he's a bad vocalist, not veyr screechy, but his delivery > sometimes - and only sometimes...it's halfway between singing and talking.
oh yeah i totally get what you mean, the dialogue type stuff... i dont really like it.. i think his voice is screechy tho...althought i must admit ive been spoiled of sorts because i hardly listen to prog metal anymore ( into heavier/darker/ stuff now) -
Without love, without truth, there can be no turning back. Without faith, without hope, there can be no peace of mind. Carlos Alfaro Internet Solutions Inc. mailto:calfaro@yunque.net mailto:prog@musician.org
------------------------------
End of YTSEJAM Digest 5124 **************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu Apr 01 2004 - 19:07:46 EST