YTSEJAM Digest 5446
Today's Topics:
1) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
by WB Henderson <wbhender@cs.millersville.edu>
2) hair metal in hartford
by "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com>
3) Xmas CD reprint
by Steffen Barabasch - The Mirror <TheMirror@dtifc.com>
4) Re: ethics of selling boots
by Scott Hansen <schansen@cts.com>
5) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
by "Christopher W. Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com>
6) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
by Erik Gudmundson <erik@dca.net>
7) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
by "Graham B" <graham@renegade2K.com>
8) Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC)
by David Peterson <glyde@computermail.net>
9) RE: YTSEJAM digest 5445
by "Philip J. Kaplan" <pk@pkinteractive.com>
10) Re: Holdsworth streaming video (DG amps and a JP tidbit)
by Jan Melander <jan.melander@got.wmdata.se>
11) Platypus CD-Cover
by "Oliver Ploier" <oliverploier@talknet.de>
12) new Metallica tune
by "M P" <mremann6@hotmail.com>
13) Re: Holdsworth streaming video / yet more live fusion
by Jon Parmet <jon@parmetpc.volpe.dot.gov>
14) Re: Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC)
by Robb Muise <robbm@shore.net>
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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:38:40 -0400
From: WB Henderson <wbhender@cs.millersville.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000426215937.00a1ed40@cs.millersville.edu>
Skip this message if you're tired of the bootleg thread. But, since it has
been two or three months since it last reared its head, I continue in,
headfirst...
Scott Hansen wrote:
>Perhaps you *might* be right about my being a bit heavy handed in referring
>to people as cheapskates, but lemme say this: whenever a fan (with a great
>reputation) who is running a boot label is releasing a great quality show
>(bootleg), I will make the effort to purchase it from them (unless it's
>outta print) for the same reason that I would hope others would do the same:
>it costs money to do what they do.
I think you misconstrued my argument. I have no serious issue with people
selling bootlegs. Someone will be there to sell them, and if it's a fan,
so much the better for the bootleg-buying audience (there's a lot of folks
that want the originals for the album art, the sake of having an
"original", etc.). If bootlegs must be sold, it's better that they be
coming from people that actually know the song titles. I won't be buying a
bootleg anytime soon, of course, but the fact that people sell doesn't
really bother me.
This doesn't change my stance on calling people who share my point of view
on boots "cheapskates" is wrong.
Truth: it costs money to produce a quality bootleg.
Understandable. But it's not a valid argument here. Should everyone who
owns a DAT be compensated for what they're doing for the bootleg-trading
community? Should anyone who travels a long distance to tape a show have
their travel accommodations paid for? Plenty of tapers distribute their
wares for free. They may not have the glitz of the CDs available from the
bootleg "labels", but they can be just as good, better in some cases (look
at Prism).
>my trading buddies will give it to me for free?" Guess what? He said "fuck
>you all - if you can't appreciate what I've done, then why should I waste my
>time?" and that was the end of Moose/Caribou.
I don't know anything about Moose, so I won't make any comments on that
particular instance. I would like to point out though that there are more
(audience) bootlegs on the market now than there ever were. And a growing
percentage of them are high-quality as audio taping and mastering
equipment/software becomes cheaper and easier to obtain.
>One last thing - if he is doing something ssssoooooooooooo wrong, why would
>*Portnoy* approach *Ryan* about possibly doing some OFFICIAL bootlegs in the
>future?
Totally unrelated. An "official bootleg" means that the band is getting a
cut of the profits. It's the same as an official release, only it may not
be through their normal record company channels. Most DT fans, including
myself, would see something like this as legit, and have no qualms about
buying it. In any case, comparing "official" bootlegs to bootlegs is
comparing apples to oranges.
Portnoy loves Dream Theater bootlegs. It's well known. He is no doubt a
guy that collects boots not only for their music, but for everything that
comes with (and there's nothing wrong with that!). Therefore, bootleg
labels like Scarred, Prism, and so on are great for him.
You and everyone who disagrees with what I've been saying needs to
understand that a lot of people don't think like this. We don't not-buy
bootlegs because we don't have the money (which is not to say that we do),
we simply believe in free trade of bootleg merchandise. Since there's no
emphasis on the extras that come with "real" bootlegs, a CD-R, DAT, or even
MP3 (for the undiscerning ear) works just as well for us. We just want the
music, and not to support some non-band entity...especially since it is
well known that plenty (and I mean plenty) of people out there are willing
to tape and distribute high-quality shows for only the cost of postage.
>So do you still feel like "freeing all the bootlegs?"
In my opinion, someone who honestly just wanted to spread the music would
not need to justify charging for their bootleggery. Someone who honestly
just wanted to spread the music would not care if other people duped their
work. Anyone who does justify or does care has a *business*, not a
service, and, as such, is subject to the normal goings-on of business (in
this case, 'unofficial' CD-R dubs are the outside competition). They
cannot plead moral high ground, no matter who they are and even if they
have the best of intentions, because, in the end, it is about money, not music.
And that's fine by me -- to think that everyone would want to give away
bootlegs for free is overly idealistic. Just understand that these are the
reasons that any complaints about the 'fairness of it all' don't weigh in
too heavily on my conscience, not because I'm making a conscious effort to
rip Ryan, you, or anybody off. Go on selling boots -- there will always be
an audience for the 'real deal' in bootlegs. However, in my case, if I can
get recordings I believe should be free for free and it's not losing the
bands I love any money for it, then that's what I'm gonna do.
Brian, "Cheapskate"
[NP...Life After Dead Air (WIXQ metal radio)]
==================================
WB Henderson [wbhender@cs.millersville.edu]
WIXQ ON-LINE: http://www.wixq.com
Automaton Hit Parade (progrock radio):
http://www.millersville.edu/~wixq/Automaton
==================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:24:22 PDT
From: "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: hair metal in hartford
Message-ID: <20000427042423.39233.qmail@hotmail.com>
Is it normal that I have a strong desire to see the Poison/Dokken/Cinderell=
a/Slaughter show in Hartford this summer?
Not at all. In fact, concerts are just about the ONLY instance in which the
desire to go to Hartford can be considered 'normal' =^)
-Fran
np: Miracle Orchestra: 8-7-99
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:26:25 +0200
From: Steffen Barabasch - The Mirror <TheMirror@dtifc.com>
To: Ytsejam <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Xmas CD reprint
Message-ID: <v04220802b52d6fbee4fc@[192.168.1.1]>
>What are the differences gonna be between the 1st and 2nd pressings of the
>Xmas CD? Are there gonna be extra tracks or are tracks gonna be removed,
>changed, what? I'm sure I'm not the only one wanting to know, so please fill
>us in!
Well, "Raise The Knife" was replaced by a new version called "Raise
The Skirt" with all explicit lyrics. Oh, and the video now includes
the shower scene!
NOT.
I just had to make another master because the pressing plant trashed
the old material, that's all. I only changed some minor details for
technical reasons.
Steffen
-- Steffen Barabasch (mailto:TheMirror@dtifc.com) THE MIRROR - deutscher Dream Theater Fanclub (http://www.dtifc.com/themirror)------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:02:57 -0700 From: Scott Hansen <schansen@cts.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: ethics of selling boots Message-ID: <B52D2621.95%schansen@cts.com>
Adam Pye said: > I actually find "cheapskate" pretty offensive.
As you can see in my other post (second to last of Jam 5445), I both apologized and stated that was not and still is not my intent. I am sorry if you took offense.
> Why don't you give a > percentage of your profits to Dream Theater - then you'll sound less > hypocritical when calling traders "cheapskates".
Ummm...you'll need to take that one up with Ryan since he is the label and the one selling them. I am simply a loyal supporter (and sometime supplier of source material) - nothing more.
> Establishments like > Scarred Records are the biggest reason that taping isn't allowed at most > bands' shows.
Perhaps in some cases but not with DT - the only reason why taping isn't allowed at DT shows is because JP, and to a lesser degree James, are worried about a bad/poor/imperfect performance being captured on tape. I'm sure if they really had a choice, they would've never allowed the HOB webcast to happen (the screw up in PMU is enough to make JP pass out in embarassment) without tweaking and/or editting the show. Otherwise, I'm sure Portnoy could have very easily swayed them both to the pro-taping side.
Setlist Scotty
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:42:15 -0500 From: "Christopher W. Ptacek" <someone@digitalrodent.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: <001801bfb013$ba6c7340$b604fea9@madstation>
> From: Scott Hansen <schansen@cts.com> > Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs
This should be addressed. We have Ryan and Scott, who are NOT Mike Bahr. But remember, Mike Bahr wasn't always Mike Bahr. I don't want Mike to have the shit he's in now, and I don't want Ryan and Scott ever to get there (I know Scott won't... he's sort of like the Boba Fett of the bootleg for sale industry)
> Perhaps you *might* be right about my being a bit heavy handed in referring > to people as cheapskates,
I think, Scott, that you need to reconsider the defensive position here and just retract that statement. Boots are to trade. If someone wants to put in a lot of work to make them sound better and look prettier, that's cool. That does justify asking for some compensation, I believe, but does not justify demanding it. The material, even in remastered form, does not belong to the bootlegger, and he should simply turn the other cheek, as it seems Ryan does, when someone works out a way to get a free copy. That free copy is not lost revenue for the bootlegger. It's someone deciding that they care about the music more than the package, and a lot of people are that way. That shouldn't be something you dog someone about. You shouldn't call these people names. You are better than that.
> outta print) for the same reason that I would hope others would do the same: > it costs money to do what they do.
It costs TIME to do what they do. You can say "time is money" but most of these cats start out doing it in their spare time, for the joy of offering some music for people to listen to. If a listener feels that the time should be rewarded monitarily, then so be it. But people will do stuff like this without demanding money for it. Heck, we should have Ytsejam contests for "Design the Liners to the new Scarred Boot" and stuff like that. Ryan should find ways to cut $$ corners without having to cut quality corners. The real bottom line is that it shouldn't get to the point where he or anyone is RELYING on the money that comes in from boot sales. And the boots really HAVE to be at a fair price, if they're sold at all. IMO, a bootlegger should start boot trees for all of his boots, and then offer the "pretty" version for sale on the side. I can see paying to compensate materials (ink in the printer, cds, cases, postage and postal materials etc) but I don't think I can see far beyond that. That's "by the fans for the fans."
> Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew
At this point you HAVE to draw the line. I refuse to accept this as some kind of $ defense. This is where Bahr went wrong. You CAN NOT reclaim the money you spend on your boot gear, the shows you have to get to, the wear and tear on your computer etc. That's bullshit. I should charge you for the wear and tear on my computer that reading your post costs if you think that's fair. That's business. We don't want business. Scott, you and I have both done long distances to see shows. We don't ask for our money back. I am proud to blow a bunch of dough to see some awesome event a thousand miles from home. I'm insulted when someone says they deserve to be paid back for those expenses. You are paid with the experiences you get from those shows. You know you'd never trade the memories of the hottest shows you've seen for dough. If Ryan decides to offer copies of these shows, bravo. He still shouldn't ask to be paid back for travel expenses. Is he going to provide gas station receipts next? Are we going to start clocking the mileage on his car? No. I think Ryan is a better person than to demand this kind of compensation. The gear thing NEVER ends. I'm a guitarist with a project studio. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW. When you need to be compensated for one piece of gear, and you finally make that dough back, you need another piece of gear. It does not end. And for some people, like Bahr, when prices reflect the need to be compensated, they don't go back down when the money is made back. The new dough becomes income and the "struggle to get by" resurges. I don't ever want to hear that story again from anyone. You make the choice to provide boots and you know that you have 2 routes: little or no profit with honesty and good intentions, or higher profit margins with no honest concern toward ethics. I honestly feel that Bahr BELIEVED he was doing us a service. I think he BELIEVED that HE was the victim. He BELIEVED that Bafu and Wacky and I came out of nowhere and started attacking him. It's not that hard to lie to yourself. I actually believed I was still in shape until a few months ago. :)
> As to the legality of the recordings - it is debateable as to whether they > are illegal or not and I choose not to expand on that,
No, Scott. Fuck that. You know it's not debateable. You can not possibly say it's legal. There are fucking laws on the books. Debate the ethics, not the laws, or you're gonna end up in the trash can. :) You're a good friend. Use your head!
> And for someone who cannot afford the show, I can feel for them - I've been > there before - REALLY! But just because someone can't afford something > doesn't mean they should just make copies for themselves. For instance, does > it make it right for someone to copy, say Mike's "Liquid Drum Theater" video > just because they can't afford it? No. So why a bootleg?
Because Ryan puts a matter of hours into the reproduction of the music that DT puts LIFETIMES into. Because boots aren't supposed to be exclusive to one source. You shouldn't HAVE to deal with the same trader for one boot. You should be able to go to whoever offers it. Because it's for the FANS. Because the FANS want to have the music. Because boots are NOT BUSINESS, nor are they LEGIT. Because you don't feel that someone should get paid for someone else's work. I understand waiting until the thing is OOP, and I respect the sentiment, but if you're a flat broke dude who puts the effort forth to make trades online, you should be able to go through whatever channels you want to get the boot you want. Boots are meant to be freely traded. You can't make them into a product unless you have the rights to the recording. And playing the "Portnoy" card, consider this. Portnoy is REALLY cool about the boot thing. As we know, that's not exactly the official feeling from the band, but let's work with what we have. What do you think would make him more proud, people releasing excellent copies of the material for a profit, or for cost/free? Wouldn't that truly put things in their places, that the band is the one that is paid for being the band, and the fans have fewer restrictions on their ability to enjoy every facet of the music?
> master the show. I'd like to see Scarred Records continue because of the > great quality bootlegs that have been released. Scarred Records is a labor > of love for the fans, whether you agree or not with the principal of buying > boots - it's that simple.
Absolutely. But if it IS a labor of love for the fans of DT then it should be enough that people buy the Scarred release if they want the art and the design. If Scarred cares about the fans, it shouldn't matter that they go through other routes. Scarred should be proud that it has released great material that people deem worthy of trading as an official and highly sought after bootleg. If that means losses, it means losses. A labor of love is synonymous with "not about the money." Don't make it about the money, Scott.
--- Ryan and Scott are extremely cool people, and Ryan runs Scarred with honesty and decency. Don't use the defenses Bahr used to defend someone who isn't being a dick. And don't put down the fans for wanting to trade for an item that is meant to be traded.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:11:10 -0400 From: Erik Gudmundson <erik@dca.net> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000427014209.00b35eb0@postoffice.dca.net>
Scott,
>it costs money to do what they do. --snip-- >Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew --snip-- >Add the costs of --snip-- >how much he blew --snip-- >it does cost money --snip-- >the cost --snip-- >the cost of --snip-- >IT COSTS MONEY --the rest snipped for obvious reasons--
After your last overly repetitive post, I think it's fair to say that the fine members of this list understand your point. However, your argument has at least one major flaw:
Fans trade their favorite bands' live music in order to increase their enjoyment of the performers they've grown to love. If Ryan or anyone else decides they'd like to tape a show, that's wonderful. That fan will bring the recording to a listenable level by using quality equipment, proper mastering techniques, etc. etc. If that listenable level includes snazzy artwork, hey, that's even more wonderful. Once the work is done (and that fan is happy), economically speaking, you're hard pressed to "charge" more than a trade for blanks or another show. This is a fundamental dictate of economics that says the socially optimal marginal revenue charged by a firm (You and Ryan Inc.) for a good is equal to its marginal cost. You can argue that the cost should be shared among all people who enjoy the bootleg, but if that's the case, then the taper fan really isn't doing it purely for himself-- let's be honest, he's either doing it for a monetary profit that the band will never see and/or to satisfy some sort of self-gratification complex.
I've taped a number of shows, mastered them, and fairly traded them. I can also confirm what Adam said: It's not a particularly easy or cheap hobby, yet fans of many other bands consistently manage to tape and distribute shows honestly and fairly. To see how it's done and how to get yourself started, check out the DAT-Heads mailing list at http://www.eklektix.com/dat-heads/
Personally, I think that if you want to sell bootlegs, you should have a blast, enjoy your customers, and take a nice trip with all the money you'll "earn." But please, don't make weak attempts to run guilt trips on fans who don't tolerate your tax on their band's music. Posts like yours are a slap in the face to genuine tapers and traders everywhere. To everyone else, check out the website I mentioned and be friendly to your fellow DT fan.
Who'd'a thunk that after joining the Ytsejam a week ago, my first post would be about this rubbish. I'm glad to see such positive Transatlantic reviews, though I can't say I'm surprised. I wish NEARfest 2000 would hurry up and get here. On the Hungarian piano Ytsejam topic, can anyone actually name a _bad_ (or even mediocre) Hungarian prog band? Everything prog I've heard from that neck of the woods has always been always stellar, particularly Solaris, who almost stole the show from Spock's Beard at NF99.
Erik
------------------------------------------ Erik Gudmundson erik@dca.net station.manager@wixq.com
WIXQ ON-LINE: http://www.wixq.com/ Pull Me Under, progmetal FM & RA radio: http://members.dca.net/erik/ Beacon Technologies, the Chester Co ISP: http://www.beaconnet.com/ ------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:56:18 +1000 From: "Graham B" <graham@renegade2K.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: <200004270900.e3R90X615271@sampa.simpleweb.com.br>
> Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew on flying from Texas up to new > England for those shows. Add the costs of hotel accomodations, ticket > costs and other costs. And let's not forget about how much he blew to > pay fo "skin" make the program look different but underneath it works > the same. > > Steve >
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