YTSEJAM Digest 5475
Today's Topics:
1) Re: last jam
by Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
2) M*t*ll*c* boycott
by "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com>
3) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5474
by IAmClay777@aol.com
4) Re: last jam
by Robert Muise <robbm@shore.net>
5) For those of you who have a trade set up with me...
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5471
by CT0409@aol.com
7) metal dogs
by "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com>
8) Re: metal dogs
by "Carlos A. Alfaro" <calfaro@yunque.net>
9) Re: Jadis
by "Tony De Laender" <fivengrok@village.uunet.be>
10) Re: Ibanez JPM's
by EvoReaper@aol.com
11) Write an Album Review for Ytsejam.com
by "Webmaster Ytsejam.com" <webmaster@ytsejam.com>
12) pop dt/ backing tracks anyone?
by mikel <mikel@alphalink.com.au>
13) Ground Loop
by Daniel Wannemacher <dany@cs.uni-sb.de>
14) Here's something interesting
by "Bill Blanchard" <wildbill2112@hotmail.com>
15) Re: Ground Loop
by Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
16) Fourth Amendment...
by schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
17) Free Speech and "old" ideas...
by schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
18) #1 Best Business Opportunity Available?
by homebiz008@talk21.com
19) Yeah, more free speech stuff...
by schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:37:54 -0500
From: Kurt M Hampton <kurt.hampton@juno.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: last jam
Message-ID: <20000511.153827.-18543.2.Kurt.Hampton@juno.com>
<According to the government, the record companies have
been ripping everyone off...>
Wow took me 2 seconds the first time I paid 17.99 for a CD. I could have
told em that A LONG time ago.
In other Dt related stuff, seems lately ve been running into a shitload
of people that like em. This weird assistant in my hitory class, a guy in
line @ subway, this guy at the Creed show last night. It just cooler evry
day.
Kurt
NP-Sava Edge of Thorns (Live!!!!!!)00
( o ) ( o )
"damn I need a new signature now"
me after reading ytsejam 5456
________________________________________________________________
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Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:44:04 PDT
From: "Fran Brennan" <okelnard@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: M*t*ll*c* boycott
Message-ID: <20000511204405.42758.qmail@hotmail.com>
I too pronounced Myung in one syllable because of my
time spent in Korea. I was surprised when I heard
Mike say it the way he did. And I know its an old
issue, but I had an idea. What if everyone boycotted
Metallica purchases? Then maybe they will see whatlosing money really
means.
I'm guessing most of the folks on this list haven't bought anything of
theirs since Load anyway...=^)
-Fran
np: Transatlantic
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:58:42 EDT
From: IAmClay777@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5474
Message-ID: <9d.546681e.264c7902@aol.com>
I thought this was pretty damn funny, IMHO...
<< +AD4-One of your readers wrote in and asked why it is that
+AD4-Dream Theater fired Derek Sherinian. Truth is, the guys from
+AD4-Dream Theater are all married and pretty good guys, while
+AD4-Derek is just a pussy-hound. While Derek is out on the
+AD4-road, he visits the local strip-joints with a handful of
+AD4-backstage passes and attempts to play the +ACI-rockstar+ACI- handing
+AD4-them out to the strippers. The wives of the guys from Dream
+AD4-Theater got pretty sick of his +ACI-Shenanigans+ACI- (which by
+AD4-the way is his nickname) and they pretty much said he's out
+AD4-or we're out. Derek calls the wives of the guys from Dream
+AD4-Theater, Yoko ono, two-oh, three-oh.....(Ask him about that
+AD4-one on your 20-questions+ACE-) In bed, Derek has a Huge ego,
+AD4-and likes to talk dirty....that's pretty much it. All talk
+AD4-and the only big head sits on top of his shoulders+ACE- What a
+AD4-selfish prick. He has absolutely no respect or admiration
+AD4-for anyone (especially women) but himself. I often wonder if
+AD4-he saw his mama naked a lot? He was definitely a load his
+AD4-mother should have swallowed+ACE- P.S. Love the site+ACE- >>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:02:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Muise <robbm@shore.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: last jam
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10005111701310.11329-100000@vineyard.ecosoft.com>
last night I put my cable box on one of the digital music stations,
"Album ROck" which suprisingly enough has DT on it from time to time.
My gf's ears perk up and she pointed out that they were playinga clip
off of the new TSO cd..
Now why can't regular radio be that cool? =)
On
Thu, 11 May 2000, Kurt M Hampton wrote:
>
> <According to the government, the record companies have
> been ripping everyone off...>
>
> Wow took me 2 seconds the first time I paid 17.99 for a CD. I could have
> told em that A LONG time ago.
>
> In other Dt related stuff, seems lately ve been running into a shitload
> of people that like em. This weird assistant in my hitory class, a guy in
> line @ subway, this guy at the Creed show last night. It just cooler evry
> day.
>
> Kurt
> NP-Sava Edge of Thorns (Live!!!!!!)00
>
> ( o ) ( o )
>
>
>
>
> "damn I need a new signature now"
> me after reading ytsejam 5456
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robb Muise "An it harm none, do as ye will"
Shore.net Network Operations Center
Email:robbm@shore.net
Phone:781-593-3110 ext181
Cell Phone: 978-884-6423
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:17:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: For those of you who have a trade set up with me...
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10005111715480.40612-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
..I have not forgotten about you. I know it must seem like I've fallen
off of the edge of the earth, but in reality, I've just been REALLY REALLY
busy (college n' stuff) and have not had time to send out any of the HOB
discs. I SWEAR to you that I have not forgotten about you and that I will
get something sent to everybody, sooner or later (hopefully sooner).
Please forgive me; I'm new to trading and didn't realize how much of my
time it would occupy when I had to trade with more than a dozen people.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Coutermarsh
a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu
http://cout.dhs.org/
Cloak on IRC
ICQ: 2513441
-------------------------------------------------
Psychiatrists say that 1 out of 4 people are
mentally ill. Check three friends. If they're OK,
you're it.
-------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:52:00 EDT
From: CT0409@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5471
Message-ID: <dd.436eaaa.264c8580@aol.com>
Hello!
I read your infos about Angra in the Ytsejam, and as you seem to rely on more
accurate information, I wanted to ask you if there is any site on the net,
which features current and updated news of this band!? All sites I know post
their news once a half year only or so!
Thank you!
CT
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:04:18 PDT
From: "Partha Mukhopadhyay" <ahtrap@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: metal dogs
Message-ID: <20000511220418.47592.qmail@hotmail.com>
a little more detail on the "metal gods" movie about ripper owens....all the
below characters are part of one long url, including the words "anistonorgy"
Apparently, Brad Pitt decided against doing this nearly a year ago, so it
must have been an idea in someone's head nearly two years ago,
meaning....shit, did George Clooney dream this movie up even before Ripper
got the gig in Priest? :)
http://mrshowbiz.go.com/archive/news/Todays_Stories/505/
anistonorgy050500.html
partha
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:33:27 -0400
From: "Carlos A. Alfaro" <calfaro@yunque.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: metal dogs
Message-ID: <391B3537.460C372C@yunque.net>
Partha Mukhopadhyay wrote:
> a little more detail on the "metal gods" movie about ripper owens....all the
> below characters are part of one long url, including the words "anistonorgy"
>
> Apparently, Brad Pitt decided against doing this nearly a year ago, so it
> must have been an idea in someone's head nearly two years ago,
> meaning....shit, did George Clooney dream this movie up even before Ripper
> got the gig in Priest? :)
>
> http://mrshowbiz.go.com/archive/news/Todays_Stories/505/
> anistonorgy050500.html
>
> partha
Well on the information ive read, it says its LOOSELY based on it. Ive been
hearing about this movie for almost 2 years as well. And just recently ive seen
it refered as the ripper owens story..
they always just said that it was about a guy who's the lead vocalist in a cover
band who gets asked to replace the original singer , someimes the reason was
because the original singer was a bitch, and sometimes because he died..
Come into this night, Your plight alone
Carry your weight, You are flawed as all of us
Come into this night, You only home
Itīs never too late, To repent, suffer the loss
Opeth : Benighted
Carlos Alfaro Internet Solutions Inc.
mailto:calfaro@yunque.net mailto:prog@musician.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:40:52 +0200
From: "Tony De Laender" <fivengrok@village.uunet.be>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Jadis
Message-ID: <000f01bfbb99$f7180480$2106bed4@be027612>
Charlei Farrell wrote:
> Since their disks are issued on GEP, you might find it difficult to track
> down their CDs. There are ordering facilities on the website, but they are
> not the most sophisticated :-)
Frontstage (http://partner.frontstage.com/?Tony+De+Laender) has three Jadis
discs in stock, Across The Water, As Daylight Fades and Understand. Their
prices are reasonable, their service is excellent and the shipping &
handling is
free if you're ordering from Belgium, The Netherlands or Luxemburg.
Tony De Laender
Editor, Progeny Magazine
*** Send in your band's demo/indie recording for review! ***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:32:12 EDT
From: EvoReaper@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Ibanez JPM's
Message-ID: <a9.5767c99.264cb91c@aol.com>
In regards to the question of Ibanez' JPM production, here's your answer:
P1-(Vivid color finish, only 100 made)
P2-Pastel Finish-Not sure of the production number, but Ibanez made more of
these to make up in lack of sales of the P4
P3-Creme and Black-John's main 7-String had this finish, only in white and
black, instead of creme and black. These were produced for a couple years.
P4-The camo finish-The "worst" JPM finish of the line. Some like it, some
don't.
JPM90-Hoshino's 90th Anniv. line. Only 450 of these were made worldwide, and
only 26 are in the US, (I only know 2 people owning one). These have a kind
of blue-ish finish on them. I know Petrucci used one during the recording of
LTE2. There are some pictures somewhere that shows it.
Aprox. 1400 JPM's were sold in the entire time of Ibanez production. (This is
an INCREDIBLY low figure, being that the JPM's were marketed for nearly 10
years, put it this way, the JEM line sells close to that number a year)
John doesn't own the rights to the Picasso Graphic. The only reason he had
this graphic on his guitars, was because during the recording of Images And
Words, Ibanez sent him a handful of Custom Shop guitars, made to his specs,
with different finishes. The Picasso graphic stuck because it happened to be
on the guitar that John took liking to the most.
Some people say that the reason for the low selling numbers of the JPM was
strictly because of the graphic. I've never played the actual guitar, but I
do plan on searching for one, (Rich Harris had 6 P4's and 6 P2's, the very
last ones sold through Chesbro).
EB/MM starts production of the JPM line this fall. Specs are still
pending, but if anyone wants the tentative list, feel free to e-mail me.
I'm not sure about the shirts being sold through JP.com, they could just be
Dream Theater shirts they had surplus of. You could always e-mail Rena to
find out.
If you want more info on the JPM's, you can go to the Ibanez JPM site, there
is a link on JP.com.
Warm Regards,
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:04:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Webmaster Ytsejam.com" <webmaster@ytsejam.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Write an Album Review for Ytsejam.com
Message-ID: <20000512040404.E78AD60BE@sitemail.everyone.net>
Ytsejam.com is currently in the process of creating a database of comprehensive reviews of Progressive Rock/Metal bands for an upcoming section of the website.
The idea is to have in depth reviews written by fans to help others who may not be familar with a particular Progressive act broaden their musical horizon.
If you are interested in writing a review for Ytsejam.com, please go to the Ytsejam.com website at http://www.ytsejam.com and click on the "CD Review" button. Once there, download the review.txt file and fill in the information. Once completed, email the file to webmaster@ytsejam.com.
We are currently only accepting reviews of Progessive Rock/Metal acts. (Those bands that lie on the fringe of Progressive may be accepted)
All submission will be reviewed for content. Not all are guaranteed to be published. Rights to the reviews will remain the property of the author. The site the content will reside in remains the property of Ytsejam.com.
Thanks in advance for the submissions.
-Koggie
==
Free Email Accounts at www.ytsejam.com
_____________________________________________________________
Check out our community at...
http://ytsejam.community.everyone.net
and access the world's best search engines instantly at...
http://ytsejam.search.everyone.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:57:32 +1000
From: mikel <mikel@alphalink.com.au>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: pop dt/ backing tracks anyone?
Message-ID: <391B8F3B.29BEA4D9@alphalink.com.au>
I've always been a fan of DT 'poppier' side. I like it, that despite all the crazy
stuff theres still some damn catchy lyrics and riffs. I agree though that they
have shown their influences a bit too much recently. I think this is because
Kevin Moore was perhaps the best member for doing simple but catchy lines,
that were still fresh and original.
> OK, just a little misunderstanding there I think, I meant only that
> people didn't seem to like *DT's* poppier songs in general (almost all of
> their songs which can be considered "poppy" got at least 1 vote), although
> I'm sure many like other mellow stuff. Subjectively speaking, I liked the
> lighter stuff up to Awake but from FII on IMHO they started writing
> "ballads" that sounded too much like other bands (HY/Sting, Anna Lee/Queen,
> TSCO/Pink Floyd) while I found the earlier mellow efforts much more unique
> and emotional (WFS, S-DV, IF). Judging from the poll, however, some fans
> also dislike the earlier mellow stuff.
Off topic-
Does anyone have or know where I can get MIDIs or backing tracks of some
sort for these songs-
Eric Johnson : Cliffs of Dover
Steve Vai: Sisters
Stevie Ray Vaughan: Texas Flood
Im doing an exam (guitar obviously) and need backing tracks for these. Any help
would be most appreciated!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:57:53 +0200
From: Daniel Wannemacher <dany@cs.uni-sb.de>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Ground Loop
Message-ID: <20000511225753.A543@jimi.cs.uni-sb.de>
> The BAD news is that I had forgotten that every time I plug my VCR and my
> computer into an audio source together, they create a nasty ground loop
> that I've never been able to get rid of (it does it with any other powered
> source, too, such as my N64 or anything like that - doesn't do it with my
> CD player, though... Can't figure that shit out).
Get a DI-Box with Ground-lift or a similar filter in the long run
to get rid of the hum.
As a hack, you could isolate the Ground-thing at the plug of your computer
with some tape.
I don't know of US-Plugs, here in Germany we got it at both sides of the
plug running across at the front. Connection is established at the sides.
Just make sure all the components on the computer-side are isolated
that there's no other ground there (like from your monitor, speakers...)
It may also help to disconnect the antenna plug of the VCR and/or disconnect
the VCR from everything else and plug it in near the computer.
Hope this helps
-dany
-- Daniel Wannemacher 'And if I don't see you no more in this world, dany@cs.uni-sb.de I'll meet you in the next one, http://on.to/dany But don't be late............' -J.H.------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:49:55 EDT From: "Bill Blanchard" <wildbill2112@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Here's something interesting Message-ID: <20000512054955.46233.qmail@hotmail.com>
I found this when I was looking at a recent history of flag burnings.
Richardson, Texas: Kavoos Mortezapour, an Iranian immigrant who police say is given to foul-mouthed tirades against Jews, Iraqis, gays and the U.S. government was charged with desecration of a flag. Mortezapour is accused of wrapping American flags around dead rodents and excrement, spray-painting them with slurs and leaving them outside of St. Joseph Catholic Church. Mortezapour, who also goes by the name Kevin Moore, denies all charges. 10/5/99 The Dallas Morning News, Dallas, TX; 10/10 /99 Sunday
By the way, I hate flag burners and will proceed to kick the $h!T out of anyone who I catch burning a flag.
"Wild" Bill ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:30:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Coutermarsh <a_couter@oz.plymouth.edu> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Ground Loop Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10005120225340.93474-100000@oz.plymouth.edu>
On Thu, 11 May 2000, Daniel Wannemacher wrote:
> > The BAD news is that I had forgotten that every time I plug my VCR and my > > computer into an audio source together, they create a nasty ground loop > > that I've never been able to get rid of (it does it with any other powered > > source, too, such as my N64 or anything like that - doesn't do it with my > > CD player, though... Can't figure that shit out). > > Get a DI-Box with Ground-lift or a similar filter in the long run > to get rid of the hum.
Wow, that would be expensive! Not to mention the fact that I'd have to get TWO DI boxes (one for each channel), coupled with the fact that a VCR uses RCA plugs and I don't know of any DI boxes that accept that kind of input - I'd have to use adapters, and that just adds noise. <sigh>... if only they made VCRs with balanced outputs... ;)
> As a hack, you could isolate the Ground-thing at the plug of your > computer with some tape. I don't know of US-Plugs, here in Germany we > got it at both sides of the plug running across at the front. > Connection is established at the sides. Just make sure all the > components on the computer-side are isolated that there's no other > ground there (like from your monitor, speakers...)
What do you mean about the tape? Just to clear everything up, I'm using a 3.5 mm connector into my computer's sound card. How would I put tape on it?
> It may also help to disconnect the antenna plug of the VCR and/or disconnect > the VCR from everything else and plug it in near the computer.
No antenna on the VCR, and since I'm in a dorm room it doesn't matter WHERE I plug in the VCR because everything's on the same circuit. I seem to remember that when I'm at home and not at school, I don't have this problem. Oh well, maybe I'll just do it at home - we're getting DSL on June 6 and I could just re-do it then...
------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh a_couter@mail.plymouth.edu http://cout.dhs.org/ Cloak on IRC ICQ: 2513441 ------------------------------------------------- Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of the same reactions in the brain as marijuana. The researchers also discovered other similarities between the two, but can't remember what they are. -------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:13:46 -0400 (EDT) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Fourth Amendment... Message-ID: <m12qCS3-000IPfC@mail.interzone.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 23:06:19 -0400
"Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu> replied to: >> Are you kidding here? You wouldn't have a problem with the >> government (or other agencies) having the right to poke around on your >> computer without having to justify their search beforehand? I would. > >Not kidding at all. It wouldn't bother me. What are they >going to see? Me asking my girlfriend how her day was. >Email from my dad asking me if I can go to a ball game >sometime. Ytsejam digests (and if they saw something they >didn't like on the 'jam, I'm confident that *I* wouldn't be >the one they'd come after). > Perhaps it wouldn't bother you, but it might bother someone who writes about private (but legal) matters. Why should they be subject to search without probable cause?
>> It's also illegal in the US according to our consitution's fourth >> amendment: > >Don't even get me started on the Bill of Rights. I stand >behind it in principle, of course, but over the past 30 >years (a little more than all my life, so far) it has not >done as much to protect law-abiding citizens as it has to >protect criminals. Klan meetings in the name of Free >Assembly. Racist and xenophobic propaganda in the name of >Free Speech. It makes me sick. > Last I checked, meeting and talking about distasteful subjects was not a crime. We already have laws to deal with any KKK or other racist who hurts someone or damages something not their own. You can't legislate away someone's racism just by making a law to stop them from talking about it. They'll just take the meetings and propaganda underground. At least when it's aboveground, others can reply to the propaganda with facts and opposing opinions.
>> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, >> and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not >> be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, >> supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place >> to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." > >There are many operative words in there, but let me point >out a couple in particular: UNREASONABLE. PROBABLE. If the >right to privacy is guaranteed ABSOLUTELY, then by the time >anyone determines whether a search is reasonable or cause is >probable IT'S TOO LATE. > The right to privacy is not guaranteed "absolutely" with the fourth amendment. It protects what it says: against unreasonable searches without probable cause. The police can't storm your house without a reason that a judge has agreed with. These kinds of checks and balances are throughout our legal system and help prevent abuse of power. BTW, today the police are having no problems jailing more people than ever before even *with* those pesky warrants.
>> A country where the government can monitor its people at whim >> and act on what it finds is heading toward Orwellian abuse. > >Orwellian, yes. Abuse? According to whom/what? The >Constitution? The Constitution is an archaic document >written by slaveowners who have been dead for 200 years. >The country has changed in that time. The Bill of Rights >should change, too. > As I assume you realize, the constitution can be changed. The people who wrote it knew they weren't perfect and they knew times would change and the constitution can change as well, if necessary. It's been modified 27 times so far (counting 10 for the Bill of Rights).
>What is everyone so ashamed of? > You don't have to be ashamed to desire that the police not have the ability to barge into your house at their whim.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:18:34 -0400 (EDT) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Free Speech and "old" ideas... Message-ID: <m12qCWg-000IPfC@mail.interzone.com>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:45:19 -0400
Steven Z replied to: >> And incidentally (amusingly enough), the Bill of Rights *was* a change to >> the Constitution. You see, those archaic slaveowners considered the >> possibility that their document might need to adapt to the times, and >> supplied a prcedure to adapt it *right in the document*. Amazing that they >> had that much foresight, huh? > >No shit, sherlock. It's still 200 years old. Jeez... > What makes an old idea worse than a new one? Is it simply the age? Give me a break. Back up your arguments please.
>> In the late 19th, and early 20th century, ideas like equal rights, >> and NON-xenophobic propaganda, were considered DANGEROUS and criminal. > >That's a good point, but still, that's almost 100 years ago. >
This is getting silly. You're saying that 100 years ago ideas were "outdated" and therefore do not apply to today's world. However, the 13th amendment (abolishing slavery) was ratified in 1865. That's over 100 years old -- how can an idea so old still apply today?? Also, the 19th amendment (equal rights for women) is almost 80 years old. Many "old" ideas still apply today.
>> Lemme put it like this. You may think you are fighting the neo-nazis by >> suppressing their pamphlets and books, but all you're really doing is BEING >> EXACTLY LIKE THEM! > >Bull-fucking-shit. If I'm going to hate someone, I'm not >going to hate him because of his race or religion or sexual >preference or what neighborhood he comes from or what color >bandana he wears. That's Nazism (or neo-Nazism or racism or >whatever). I hate people for something MUCH more dangerous >than that: what they THINK and what they DO - things that >have the potential to do harm to others. > You're being contradictory again. You hate some people for how they think, but you said that you won't hate anyone because of their religion. Religion is a belief, a set of thoughts. If the KKK was an official religion I suppose you could no longer hate them? A person could just as easily hate Jews, not for their religion, but for how they think about God. Perhaps you don't mean to, but you are implying that since people think things that you don't like that we should be able to apply control over those thoughts just in case they might act on them. Is that what you intend? I'm just trying to clarify.
>There's a HUGE difference between INCLUSIVE policies and >EXCLUSIVE policies. Women fought for the right to be >included in the process of American Government, and they >won. They fought long enough and they won. > Have you asked yourself how they were allowed to say things that were considered dangerous at that time? How do you expect other people who hold minority opinions (such as gays today for example) to express their opinions and fight for their rights if we do not allow free speech (even if it is distasteful speech for many people)?
>What if the KKK fights long enough? > Let's assume they do. Let's say that they somehow manage to get enough seats (51%) in the house and senate to pass a law which prohibits everyone from speaking bad things about the KKK. They search a few old Ytsejam logs and find your post about what jerks the KKK are. They convince a judge that they need a warrant to search your home computer and they find that you forgot to delete your sent folder and you have a whole bunch of messages about what jerks the KKK are. They arrest you. But, you're smart. You take your case to the supreme court and guess what... You win. Why? Because you have the freedom to say what you want even if the KKK guys don't like it. The supreme court judges are there for life for a good reason -- they aren't beholden to anyone so they can make objective judgements (as much as possible). Now, what if those KKK folks get a 2/3rds majority (which would be even more difficult than the simple majority) in the house and senate and they pass a new amendment which abolishes the first amendment (free speech)? 3/4 of the states also ratify it. Well, then you and I are in trouble because we both think the KKK are jerks and have said so. One of the reasons we need to maintain free speech for everyone is because someday our opinions might be the ones in the minority. We do have to take the bad with the good though, otherwise it's not free speech anymore.
Of course, the above example is unlikely. But, free speech is still very important today. Just ask most minority groups (such as gays, ethnic groups, smaller religions) who might otherwise be left with no voice if larger groups had their way. No one person or group can be left to decide what speech is distasteful or dangerous for all others. Even if we could trust Bill Clinton or Congress to make decisions about what we are allowed to say, do you want to bet that we'll be able to trust every president and congress after this? The writers of the constitution didn't want to make that bet and I don't either.
Do you really think you could speak out against the government and its policies without a second thought (question the leaders and the laws as you have done here) in a country like China? Many people who have spoken out too loudly in countries like China are in jail or are dead even though we both would think their statements perfectly reasonable. The first amendment protects against such actions by the government and we should not remove that protection.
Steve
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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:19:28 -0400 (EDT) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Yeah, more free speech stuff... Message-ID: <m12qCXZ-000IQ0C@mail.interzone.com>
> Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:45:19 -0400 > From: "Steven Zebrowski" <szebro1@gl.umbc.edu> > Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5470 > > There's a HUGE difference between INCLUSIVE policies and > EXCLUSIVE policies. Women fought for the right to be > included in the process of American Government, and they > won. > If this is the case, then you should be in favor of freedom of speech. After all, to make a law that precludes some speech would be excluding people who want to say those things. The first amendment is very inclusive -- it even includes people who are exclusive. :-)
Steve
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End of YTSEJAM Digest 5475 **************************
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