YTSEJAM Digest 6502
Today's Topics:
1) Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
by "Karyn Hamilton" <littlewenda@hotmail.com>
2) Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
3) Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
4) Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
by Chris <ccooney@comcast.net>
5) Re: Flamewar history
by Brian Hansen <bhansen10@yahoo.com>
6) Re: Flamewar history
by Kgahjah1@aol.com
7) RE: Flamewar history
by "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
8) RE: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
by "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
9) RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
by Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
10) Re: High-pitched vocalists
by "HJ Rivera" <hrivera@crp.org>
11) RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
by "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
12) RE: High-pitched vocalists
by "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
13) RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
by Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
14) RE: Flamewar history
by Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net>
15) RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
by "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
16) RE: Flamewar history
by "HJ Rivera" <hrivera@crp.org>
17) Falsetto
by "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
18) RE: Flamewar history
by Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org>
19) High Pitched Vocals, con't....
by Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org>
20) Re: Falsetto
by Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org>
21) Re: High Pitched Vocals, con't....
by Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:37:20 +1000
From: "Karyn Hamilton" <littlewenda@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <BAY2-F31lwkHWEPlbys0000be98@hotmail.com>
Aha. The cds are found. My copy of 'Closure' (track 4) is 5:15 long, and
you're right, it does sound incomplete :-/
-- Karyn
> >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:13:11 -0500
> >From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
> >To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
> >Subject: Re: Sound good??
> >
> >I also gave in to my own impatience and grabbed Damnation off some p2p
> >networks. Good album... I think one track is incomplete though... how
>long
> >is your track #4?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Shetzer" <echo26@videotron.ca>
>Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Flamewar history
<snip>
>Everything else I've heard is just too cheesy. I don't understand why most
>prog metal singers need to sing so high and with so much vibrato.
*cough* Angra *cough*
-- Karyn
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:51:27 -0500
From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <01f201c2f41c$86b6e530$9b00a8c0@SHETZ>
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that's too bad, its one my fave songs so far :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Karyn Hamilton
To: Multiple recipients of list
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Aha. The cds are found. My copy of 'Closure' (track 4) is 5:15 long, and
you're right, it does sound incomplete :-/
-- Karyn
> >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:13:11 -0500
> >From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
> >To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
> >Subject: Re: Sound good??
> >
> >I also gave in to my own impatience and grabbed Damnation off some p2p
> >networks. Good album... I think one track is incomplete though... how
>long
> >is your track #4?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Shetzer" <echo26@videotron.ca>
>Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Flamewar history
<snip>
>Everything else I've heard is just too cheesy. I don't understand why most
>prog metal singers need to sing so high and with so much vibrato.
*cough* Angra *cough*
-- Karyn
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:52:09 -0500
From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <01f901c2f41c$a0292d70$9b00a8c0@SHETZ>
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wait, you're a female who likes Opeth and DT? We must meet, my dear :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Karyn Hamilton
To: Multiple recipients of list
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Aha. The cds are found. My copy of 'Closure' (track 4) is 5:15 long, and
you're right, it does sound incomplete :-/
-- Karyn
> >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:13:11 -0500
> >From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
> >To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
> >Subject: Re: Sound good??
> >
> >I also gave in to my own impatience and grabbed Damnation off some p2p
> >networks. Good album... I think one track is incomplete though... how
>long
> >is your track #4?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Shetzer" <echo26@videotron.ca>
>Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Flamewar history
<snip>
>Everything else I've heard is just too cheesy. I don't understand why most
>prog metal singers need to sing so high and with so much vibrato.
*cough* Angra *cough*
-- Karyn
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 00:15:10 -0500
From: Chris <ccooney@comcast.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <020b01c2f41f$d6d8ef60$4ca85444@shlb1201.mi.comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: Karyn Hamilton <littlewenda@hotmail.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
> <snip>
>
> >Everything else I've heard is just too cheesy. I don't understand why
most
> >prog metal singers need to sing so high and with so much vibrato.
>
> *cough* Angra *cough*
>
> -- Karyn
Aw I love Andre Matos. :) High voices are right up my alley though.
Geddy Lee, Geoff Tate, Ray Alder...all high voices, but all different. Oh
well, different strokes I guess!
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:10:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Hansen <bhansen10@yahoo.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <20030327061001.50327.qmail@web13101.mail.yahoo.com>
"Antony Gelberg" <ag@antgel.co.uk> wrote:
>> I remember back in 1996 when I wrote something
about SyX, most people said
>> they suck. Why because they didn't heard them
before.
>> Now everyone loves them.
> I think they suck. Badly. And I have heard quite a
lot of their
> stuff. So perhaps _you_ should open your mind and
not think you
> are speaking for everyone.
And what's wrong with Styx? At least we can all agree
that Load is the best Metallica recording...
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:09:42 EST
From: Kgahjah1@aol.com
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <199.17db6a88.2bb45216@aol.com>
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if you're refering to the chicago based band styx i can sum up what's wrong
w/ them in two words: mr robotica.
jacko
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:29:47 -0500
From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <C2585FD5E8EF8E45B8C1EE08C4BF1BEE018F9DC8@hqexs20>
-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Gelberg [mailto:ag@antgel.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:30 PM
[snip]
I don't understand why most prog metal singers need to sing so high and with
so much
vibrato.
[snip]
***The same reason most prog metal drummers play super fast double-bass
parts, or the same reason most prog metal guitarists play lightning fast
widdly-widdly solos: It's difficult and technically challenging, and that
is part of the genre. I never understand why many prog fans seem to really
appreciate virtuoso musicianship, but only when not applied to the vocals.
The singers are just trying to be as technically proficient with their
instrument (their voice) as the rest of the band are on theirs.
Jason
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:11:43 -0600
From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Sound good?? and Re: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <4642CF49B0BEB44386CA20BD34DC2438D998D2@hhpech01.healthaxis.dom>
And don't forget Mark Slaughter. ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris [mailto:ccooney@comcast.net]
Aw I love Andre Matos. :) High voices are right up my alley though.
Geddy Lee, Geoff Tate, Ray Alder...all high voices, but all different. Oh
well, different strokes I guess!
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 07:17:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
Message-ID: <20030327151721.98522.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>
--- "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com> wrote:
>> I don't understand why most prog metal singers need to sing so high
>> and with so much vibrato
>
> It's difficult and technically challenging, and
> that
> is part of the genre.
<snip>
> The singers are just trying to be as technically proficient with
> their
> instrument (their voice) as the rest of the band are on theirs.
IMO that would explain the vibrato, but not the high pitch. In
classical music baritone or bass singers have to be technically as
excellent as tenors. Listen to Beethoven's ninth symphony for an
example. Prog and other metal singers tend to sing with
countertenor-like falsetto, but not because it is more difficult than
singing bass parts. Any other answer?
BTW. High pitched voices don't bother me (Khan, LaBrie, DC Cooper, Matt
Bradley, that Vanden Plas guy). Badly sung high pitched voices do
(Tolkki has been replaced by Kotipelto on vocals for a reason).
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:26:47 -0500
From: "HJ Rivera" <hrivera@crp.org>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: High-pitched vocalists
Message-ID: <EGEIJAKNLNKPLAHMKAIPAEPKDKAA.hrivera@crp.org>
>And don't forget Mark Slaughter. ;)
I realize I'm in a very, very small group, but I love Slaughter's voice.
It's like taking Geddy's voice and running it through the blender. His voice
on "Anthem" in that Working Man Rush tribute disc was awesome.
There are very few high-pitched vocalists I can't stand: Jim Gillette
(Nitro) and Tony Mills (Shy) in particular.
joe
np. Helloween - Rabbit Don't Come Easy (oy... let's add Deris to screechers
I can't stand ;))
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:33:54 -0500
From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
Message-ID: <C2585FD5E8EF8E45B8C1EE08C4BF1BEE018F9DD2@hqexs20>
Within whatever vocal range your voice falls, the "high" notes are
generally more difficult. If you're a baritone, your "high" range is lower
that a tenor's "high" range, but for both it is easier to sing in their
respective midrange than the high. Bass vocalists, (much like bass
guitarists or tuba players) are seldom called on to exercise their "high"
ranges, unless they have a "solo" spot. What I am talking about here are
actual head-voice high ranges, not falsetto. Perhaps, if Cloak is still
around he could contribute more to this discussion.
This does bring up another question that I've always had: On a
brass instrument, it is more difficult to play high notes (high relative to
that particular instrument), so it is "impressive" when a trumpet or
trombone player plays really high. This, I always assumed, was why solos
are almost always played in the upper register: it's difficult, so you
"show off" during the solo. But somehow this has transferred over to other
instruments, such as the guitar, where it really isn't significantly more
difficult to play high notes than low ones. So, why is that the convention
of solos? Is it just because high pitches cut through better than low?
Anyone have any theories?
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Geerts [mailto:petergee1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 10:19 AM
IMO that would explain the vibrato, but not the high pitch. In
classical music baritone or bass singers have to be technically as
excellent as tenors. Listen to Beethoven's ninth symphony for an
example. Prog and other metal singers tend to sing with
countertenor-like falsetto, but not because it is more difficult than
singing bass parts. Any other answer?
BTW. High pitched voices don't bother me (Khan, LaBrie, DC Cooper, Matt
Bradley, that Vanden Plas guy). Badly sung high pitched voices do
(Tolkki has been replaced by Kotipelto on vocals for a reason).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:56:50 -0600
From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" <JSouter@healthaxis.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: High-pitched vocalists
Message-ID: <4642CF49B0BEB44386CA20BD34DC2438D998F3@hhpech01.healthaxis.dom>
I responded as a joke because of the high-pitched vocals reference, but I
also have 3 or 4 Slaughter CDs ;)
There's some great stuff on those CDs..
jm
-----Original Message-----
From: HJ Rivera [mailto:hrivera@crp.org]
>>>And don't forget Mark Slaughter. ;)
I realize I'm in a very, very small group, but I love Slaughter's voice.
It's like taking Geddy's voice and running it through the blender. His voice
on "Anthem" in that Working Man Rush tribute disc was awesome.
There are very few high-pitched vocalists I can't stand: Jim Gillette
(Nitro) and Tony Mills (Shy) in particular.
joe
np. Helloween - Rabbit Don't Come Easy (oy... let's add Deris to screechers
I can't stand ;))
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 08:13:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
Message-ID: <20030327161303.24336.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
--- "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com> wrote:
> Within whatever vocal range your voice falls, the "high" notes are
> generally more difficult. If you're a baritone, your "high" range is
> lower
> that a tenor's "high" range, but for both it is easier to sing in
> their
> respective midrange than the high.
Agreed. And nicely put by the way. So it looks like the question
becomes: why are most metal vocalists (counter)tenors? Or in fact most
non-classical singers (except maybe that guy from Crash Test Dummies,
.. okay and Leonard Cohen, and Andrew Eldritch)
I'm sure though that you'll agree with me that pitch and vibrato isn't
all that defines a technically good singer. A technically proficient
singer should be able to sing well in his complete vocal range, not
just in the high notes. And then there are other aspects such as
expression (including volume, again in low as well as high notes) as
well as articulation (is there still a 'misheard lyrics' part in the
faq?)
> What I am talking about here
> are
> actual head-voice high ranges, not falsetto.
Hmmm... when KJLB hits the high notes, he sings falsetto, so does Andre
Matos, all the time even, or Bruce Dickinson...
> This does bring up another question that I've always had: On a
> brass instrument, it is more difficult to play high notes (high
> relative to
> that particular instrument), so it is "impressive" when a trumpet or
> trombone player plays really high.
<snip>
> of solos? Is it just because high pitches cut through better than
> low?
Hmmm I think so. People often complain they can't hear the bass in the
mix. In addition to that, I would say that higher notes are just more
pleasant to the human ear in general. I don't think it has anything to
do with showing off...
Cheers
Peter
NP: Kamelot - Epica
Blind Guardian - A Night at the Opera
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:34:32 -0300
From: Eduardo Ojeda <PuppiesOnAcid@softhome.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: RE: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <p05100301baa8bc4bf8a2@[216.244.255.17]>
>Personally, I reckon the best singing I've ever heard in prog is PoS. I
>don't think he has the best voice I've heard, but I think they have the best
>vocal lines in their music.
Totally, Glidenlow is the best vocalist in the prog metal scene. That
man can really make you cry.
- Edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:42:44 -0500
From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
Message-ID: <C2585FD5E8EF8E45B8C1EE08C4BF1BEE018F9DD4@hqexs20>
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Geerts [mailto:petergee1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:20 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: High pitched vocals (was: Flamewar history)
[snip]
I'm sure though that you'll agree with me that pitch and vibrato isn't
all that defines a technically good singer. A technically proficient
singer should be able to sing well in his complete vocal range, not
just in the high notes. And then there are other aspects such as
expression (including volume, again in low as well as high notes) as
well as articulation (is there still a 'misheard lyrics' part in the
faq?)
***Yes, I do agree with you. I just think that "showing off" comes as part
of the prog metal genre, so a lot of vocalists feel like they have to slap
you in the face with just how "good" they are. To me, the best vocalists
are the ones who have grown out of that phase and start trying different
things rather than "all high all the time."
Hmmm... when KJLB hits the high notes, he sings falsetto, so does Andre
Matos, all the time even, or Bruce Dickinson...
***I think we may be operating under different definitions of "falsetto".
It seems to be a term that is applied differently by different people. The
only falsetto vocals from KJLB, by my definition, that I can think of off
the top of my head are in "Speak to Me". Of course, as a tuba player, I'm
not a vocal expert, but I do not believe that what you are talking about is
technically "falsetto." Hopefully, someone with a stronger grasp of vocal
terminology can clear this up.
[snip]
Peter
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:54:00 -0500
From: "HJ Rivera" <hrivera@crp.org>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <EGEIJAKNLNKPLAHMKAIPAEPMDKAA.hrivera@crp.org>
>Totally, Glidenlow is the best vocalist in the prog metal scene. That
>man can really make you cry.
He certainly makes me cry (of pain). :)
joe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:53:06 -0500
From: "Herbert, Jason" <jherbert@generalcable.com>
To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Falsetto
Message-ID: <C2585FD5E8EF8E45B8C1EE08C4BF1BEE018F9DD5@hqexs20>
I dug this up in a cached vocal FAQ:
Question: What is the difference between "head voice" and "falsetto"? Do
women have a falsetto?
Answer: Although many people use these terms interchangeably, they are both
physically different processes that occur within the larynx. Both men and
women have a head voice as well as falsetto. During speech, the vocal cords
naturally adduct and vibrate at their full length. When a singer ascends
from their speaking chest voice into their head voice, the vocal cords
shorten in vibrating length as sound waves begin to travel more and more
behind the soft palate, resonating in the head cavity. When done correctly
there is no sudden shift in tone production because the vocal cords are
staying adducted while the singer crosses the bridge into their head voice.
Falsetto is the maximal elongation of vocal cords with minimal glottic gap.
It can be produced at almost any frequency, but is mostly produced in the
upper range for both male and female voices. It is the uncontrolled breathy
or whistly sound that results from the vocal cords separating and most often
occurs when a singer has not learned to coordinate their vocal cords to stay
closing between registers. As a result, too much air forces the vocal cords
apart, creating a "break." During falsetto the vocal cords are actually
bowed apart and are unable to blend with chest voice, making it impractical
to use except for special vocal stylings. While falsetto is sometimes used
for style (such as in yodeling), most of the time it either occurs
accidentally or as a stylistic means to disguise the singer's inability to
coordinate their vocal cords between registers.
http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:JLJHKZVVe0sC:www.davestroud.com/vocalfa
q1.middle.html+vocal+terms+falsetto+%22head+voice%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:59:20 +0000 (UTC)
From: Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: RE: Flamewar history
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0303271641580.4205-100000@sdf.lonestar.org>
jason, couldn't of summed it up better. i'm a vocalist, as well as a
drummer, and have posted a bunch of times on a similar issue (clean vox
vs. growl vox), but you hit the nail right on the head there. makes me
think of PoS. i'm just starting to get into them, & really dig their
stuff. however, ole' danny boy is one monotonous guy when he's behind the
microphone. correction. maybe monotonous isn't the right word. the
vocals just aren't exciting in any way. put that into the perspective of
prog music on the whole, as jason did, and he's got a great point.
for most of us (i'm assuming here; not "speaking" for anyone), and
deffinetly for myself, one of the reasons i love prog is because it amazes
me. for bands like DT, Planet X, Bozzio/Levin/Stevens, Yes, Rush: there's
not many people that can play like that, & it amazes me to hear them. i
would wager that 9 out of 10 singers could sing like Daniel Gildenlow
(sp?), but i've never heard anyone else who can "play" a microphone like
James Labrie, Geoff Tate, or Jon Anderson. i'm with you all the way,
jason. i don't get how mastery of guitar, bass, keys, or drums is
applauded & revered, but mastery of the voice is pushed aside in favor of
mediocre vocal skill. i guess some things just aren't supposed to make
sense, eh?? that's my story, & i'm stickin' to it.
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Herbert, Jason wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Antony Gelberg [mailto:ag@antgel.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:30 PM
>
> [snip]
>
> I don't understand why most prog metal singers need to sing so high and with
> so much
> vibrato.
>
> [snip]
>
> ***The same reason most prog metal drummers play super fast double-bass
> parts, or the same reason most prog metal guitarists play lightning fast
> widdly-widdly solos: It's difficult and technically challenging, and that
> is part of the genre. I never understand why many prog fans seem to really
> appreciate virtuoso musicianship, but only when not applied to the vocals.
> The singers are just trying to be as technically proficient with their
> instrument (their voice) as the rest of the band are on theirs.
>
>
> Jason
>
-- Best Regards, Independent Computer Consultant, Eric George -Tech Guru's"The least important things in life get the most appreciation. The most important things in life don't seem to get enough." -me
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:39:31 +0000 (UTC) From: Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: High Pitched Vocals, con't.... Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0303271711130.4205-100000@sdf.lonestar.org>
<snip> Totally, Glidenlow is the best vocalist in the prog metal scene. That man can really make you cry. <snip>
well, maybe i've just been listening to the wrong smattering of PoS then. granted, i think Gildenlow's voice fits PoS's style perfectly. and, there is a lot of emotion behind his voice. but, to sing as he sings just isn't THAT tough. i think what inspires people about Gildenlow's voice (at least me) is that you really feel that he "believes" what he's singing, given the emotion put into it. but from a raw perspective of sheer vocal skill, he doesn't come across as anything extraordinary.
<snip> I think we may be operating under different definitions of "falsetto". It seems to be a term that is applied differently by different people. The only falsetto vocals from KJLB, by my definition, that I can think of off the top of my head are in "Speak to Me". Of course, as a tuba player, I'm not a vocal expert, but I do not believe that what you are talking about is technically "falsetto." Hopefully, someone with a stronger grasp of vocal terminology can clear this up. <snip>
yes, you would be correct there. a lot of people commonly mistake high range for falsetto. in fact, some use the terms quite interchangeably. however, it just isn't true. as far as KJLB is concerned, "Speak to Me" is the only TRUE representation of falsetto i've heard in his singing, at least off the top of my head. even the high part that he hits in their rendition of "O Holy Night" is still in "full voice", not his "head voice", which is what falsetto is classified as. go to 2:50 in "Take The Time". again, NOT falsetto. 2:15 - 2:45 in "Innocence Faded". NOT falsetto. now, for those of us that don't have a range like that, in order to hit those same notes one would probably have to resort to falsetto in order to match the pitch. however, that's just how far KJLB's range is (or was) able to go. what defines falsetto, and can help to pick it out when listening to it, is not the pitch being hit, but HOW the pitch is being reached. using the terms "head voice" for falsetto & "full voice" or "chest voice" for normal range, go and listen to "Speak to Me". you'll have your example of falsetto. then, go & listen to some of the other high parts mentioned above. compare how the actual delivery sounds, and that can at least give you something to make a comparison from, short of me sitting in front of you & demonstrating in person. hope that helps.
-- Best Regards, Independent Computer Consultant, Eric George -Tech Guru's
"The least important things in life get the most appreciation. The most important things in life don't seem to get enough." -me
Proud "Trillian" user http://www.ceruleanstudios.com AIM screename: Ryften13 ICQ #: 163843613 drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org (text-based email) schnerck@hotmail.com -or- peruvian@dreamtheater.zzn.com (HTML-based email) SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org Progressive Musician's Forum - http://www0.org/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi#general
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:50:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: Falsetto Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0303271743010.4205-100000@sdf.lonestar.org>
hey jason, thanks for that man. i sent my reply on falsetto before getting this one, but they work together nicely. those song samples i mentioned listening to: you'll notice that there's no "break" in Labrie's voice as he moves to those upper notes. and, in "Speak to Me", you'll hear how his voice sounds "breathy", as the deffinition below states. you won't hear that same quality in the other high parts, which i mentioned as being within Labrie's full range. in "Speak to Me", those notes are NOT examples of the top of his range in relation to pitch. he has sung much higher notes than those. he just chose, for the sake of the delivery, to use a more "airy" & "breathy" approach as it applied to that paticular song.
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Herbert, Jason wrote:
> I dug this up in a cached vocal FAQ: > > Question: What is the difference between "head voice" and "falsetto"? Do > women have a falsetto? > > Answer: Although many people use these terms interchangeably, they are both > physically different processes that occur within the larynx. Both men and > women have a head voice as well as falsetto. During speech, the vocal cords > naturally adduct and vibrate at their full length. When a singer ascends > from their speaking chest voice into their head voice, the vocal cords > shorten in vibrating length as sound waves begin to travel more and more > behind the soft palate, resonating in the head cavity. When done correctly > there is no sudden shift in tone production because the vocal cords are > staying adducted while the singer crosses the bridge into their head voice. > Falsetto is the maximal elongation of vocal cords with minimal glottic gap. > It can be produced at almost any frequency, but is mostly produced in the > upper range for both male and female voices. It is the uncontrolled breathy > or whistly sound that results from the vocal cords separating and most often > occurs when a singer has not learned to coordinate their vocal cords to stay > closing between registers. As a result, too much air forces the vocal cords > apart, creating a "break." During falsetto the vocal cords are actually > bowed apart and are unable to blend with chest voice, making it impractical > to use except for special vocal stylings. While falsetto is sometimes used > for style (such as in yodeling), most of the time it either occurs > accidentally or as a stylistic means to disguise the singer's inability to > coordinate their vocal cords between registers. > > http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:JLJHKZVVe0sC:www.davestroud.com/vocalfa > q1.middle.html+vocal+terms+falsetto+%22head+voice%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 >
-- Best Regards, Independent Computer Consultant, Eric George -Tech Guru's
"The least important things in life get the most appreciation. The most important things in life don't seem to get enough." -me
Proud "Trillian" user http://www.ceruleanstudios.com AIM screename: Ryften13 ICQ #: 163843613 drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org (text-based email) schnerck@hotmail.com -or- peruvian@dreamtheater.zzn.com (HTML-based email) SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org Progressive Musician's Forum - http://www0.org/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi#general
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Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:30:32 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Geerts <petergee1@yahoo.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: High Pitched Vocals, con't.... Message-ID: <20030327183032.83569.qmail@web20808.mail.yahoo.com>
--- Eric George <drizzt@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote: > yes, you would be correct there. a lot of people commonly mistake > high > range for falsetto. in fact, some use the terms quite > interchangeably.
Okay Eric, Jason, looks like I'm one of those confusing head voice with falsetto. About what you said... one of the reasons I like James' singing that much is that he doesn't want to hit the high notes ALL the time. Diversity is the key to interesting music, and this should definitely be the case in prog(metal).
cheers Peter
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