YTSEJAM digest 6720

From: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Date: Wed Nov 26 2003 - 19:49:41 EST

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YTSEJAM Digest 6720

Today's Topics:

  1) Re: wankery
by "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
  2) Re: UK/Eddie Jobson
by WB Henderson <LycanthropicEye@comcast.net>
  3) Re: Just got ToT...
by "Dave Schott" <admdave@qis.net>
  4) Re: wankery
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
  5) albums, Yellow Matter
by Sebastian Keil <keil.s@web.de>
  6) Re: albums, Yellow Matter
by Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
  7) Re: albums, Yellow Matter
by Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com>
  8) Re: wankery
by "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
  9) Re: definition of progressive
by "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com>
10) Re: wankery
by "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com>
11) My info
by "Marcelo Muzilli" <mmuzilli@ig.com.br>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:24:42 -0500
From: "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: wankery
Message-ID: <Law15-F113LOEpcTYKj0001442b@hotmail.com>

Well I see a huge difference in wankery (which is most of the solos on ToT)
and virtuosity. The solos are fast for the sake of being fast, as in showy.
It used to be that the solos were complex but melodic and were a part of a
journey. Metropolis is a good example. Now its all cut and paste. You'll
have a solid theme and then BANG, superfast soloing to show off. Seems like
that is metal to Dream Theater. Not to me. I've listened more and more to
ToT and the problems are just getting more obvious. I don't know of one
song that I can say I COMPLETELY like...let alone love. Very strange album
for me. You want metal with some solid progressive playing...no
wankery...get anything by Threshold. To me, they set the standard.

>From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
>Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
>To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
>Subject: wankery
>Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:11:39 -0800 (PST)
>
>--Boundary_(ID_uNndtUsaU/jZQ/sPwON0RA)
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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>
>After reading many posts on the opinions (both first and those after many
>listens), it seems evident that ONE of the critiques is the display of DT
>wankery on tracks, or of just plain insane fast solo-ing. I, like most of
>you, love prog music, one of the reasons is that if I want to hear wankery
>or insane musicianship, I don't have to look very far. Thusly, wankery or
>virtuosity is always a plus when listening to a song. It's always
>entertaining to hear a cool track burst to insane instrumentalism and then
>after 3 minutes of that bust back into the original groove of the song.
>What are your opinions on wankery?
>
>--Boundary_(ID_uNndtUsaU/jZQ/sPwON0RA)
>---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment

_________________________________________________________________
Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:01:00 -0500
From: WB Henderson <LycanthropicEye@comcast.net>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: UK/Eddie Jobson
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20031125194727.00af67d8@mail.comcast.net>

Rob P wrote:

>Jobson first backed Ian Anderson on what was to be his solo album but
>subsequently became another Tull album called "A".

I used to have an awesome Tull boot featuring Jobson called "Caught in the
Crossfire" (10/26/80). He had two rather lenghty solos, as I recall, one
on keys, and one on violin. (Its source was a King Biscuit Flower Hour
recording, so there's a remote chance it could see legit release someday.)

Brian

[NP...Katatonia - Dance of December Souls]

=============================================
WB Henderson [LycanthropicEye@comcast.net]
=============================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:35:03 -0500
From: "Dave Schott" <admdave@qis.net>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: Re: Just got ToT...
Message-ID: <010801c3b315$e0f16f30$0200a8c0@Two>

Interesting, my first impression was a complete mirror image of that one...
takes all kinds I guess.

-Dave Schott (AdmiralDave)
admdave@qis.net
http://www.bangarangband.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Costello" <iluvatar@rochester.rr.com>
To: "Multiple recipients of list" <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Just got ToT...

> First, the cd packaging has a red strip to rip open the celophane. MAJOR
> BONUS POINTS!
>
> Some of the best DT cover art ever. This and FII are really friggin cool.
No
> more floating statues! :-)
>
>
>
> Upon first listening...
>
> As I Am:
>
> First thing I notice - whoa, this intro is friggin cool.
>
> Milliseconds later, second thing I notice - hey, there's digital
> distortion/clipping all over this thing! :-( First Vapor Trails and now
> Train of Thought! :-( :-( :-(
>
> As a whole, the song's pretty decent.
>
>
> This Dying Soul:
> More cool riffing.
> I don't like the processing on James' singing in this song. It actually
fits
> better than his normal vibrato would, but in the grand scheme of vocal
> tones, I'm not wild about it.
> The "rapping" is okay - more like heavy syncopated screaming. Not
wonderful,
> but not nearly as bad as the canadian human beat box I was imagining based
> upon the complaints I've read.
>
> ok song. It's cool for upbeat background music for driving or working out.
> The solo was a total wankfest, but this was the grandaddy of wankfests.
> Jeez'm that was fast!
>
>
> Endless Sacrifice:
> More digital distortion. :-(
> One of jordan's patches sounds very fuzzy, adding to the distorted sound.
> :-(
> I wasn't paying attention to most of the middle part. Nothing really stood
> out at me, though.
>
>
> Honor Thy Father:
> Riffage is cool, but everything's starting to sound the same.
>
> Vacant:
> Good music - some elements very reminiscent of SFAM. Crappy lyrics - also
> reminiscent of SFAM? :-). Overall, a nice change of pace from the
> All-loud-all-the-time feel of the first 4 tracks
>
> Stream of Consciousness:
> My favorite tune so far. Interesting changes, dynamics and solo breaks.
Also
> VERY reminiscent of SFAM.
>
> In the Name of God:
> Wankfest galore. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
>
>
> Waiting on 2nd listen...
>
> -Dan.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:26:30 -0500
From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca>
To: ytsejam@torchsong.com
Subject: Re: wankery
Message-ID: <002801c3b3d5$76f576b0$9b00a8c0@mizz>

--Boundary_(ID_OLIk3ojnktUKJP1kJcSwcQ)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Well, agreed to some point. Threshold is cool.
What wankery if anyone do you like?
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Rob P
  To: Multiple recipients of list
  Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:34 PM
  Subject: Re: wankery

  Well I see a huge difference in wankery (which is most of the solos on ToT)
  and virtuosity. The solos are fast for the sake of being fast, as in showy.
    It used to be that the solos were complex but melodic and were a part of a
  journey. Metropolis is a good example. Now its all cut and paste. You'll
  have a solid theme and then BANG, superfast soloing to show off. Seems like
  that is metal to Dream Theater. Not to me. I've listened more and more to
  ToT and the problems are just getting more obvious. I don't know of one
  song that I can say I COMPLETELY like...let alone love. Very strange album
  for me. You want metal with some solid progressive playing...no
  wankery...get anything by Threshold. To me, they set the standard.

  _________________________________________________________________
  Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
  always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
  http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio

--Boundary_(ID_OLIk3ojnktUKJP1kJcSwcQ)
---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:59:49 +0100
From: Sebastian Keil <keil.s@web.de>
To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com>
Subject: albums, Yellow Matter
Message-ID: <BBEA2A15.81F%keil.s@web.de>

Hi there,
to start my work day, I put all DT studio releases on my computer. Shit,
just realized I forgot WDADU. Anyway, I have lots of trouble with ranking
them, some just seem so close. I suppose it goes as follows
I&W
AWAKE
SfaM
ACOS
FII
DISC2

--- WDADU DISC1 ToT

I got Yellow Matter Custard last week and love it. Any other opinions? Did anyone see the Zeppelin show?

What is it now with the rotted tree, isn't that wrong and should be rotten, or is that a Canadian form?

cheers

sab

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:38:54 -0500 From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: albums, Yellow Matter Message-ID: <003901c3b42b$047d74b0$9b00a8c0@mizz>

--Boundary_(ID_JqMs+dUh3CsBj4Rgp/tLSQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

What do you mean you "got" it? Wasn't it a live show? Or did they release a disc of one of the shows... and what canadian rotten tree? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sebastian Keil To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 4:11 AM Subject: albums, Yellow Matter

Hi there, to start my work day, I put all DT studio releases on my computer. Shit, just realized I forgot WDADU. Anyway, I have lots of trouble with ranking them, some just seem so close. I suppose it goes as follows I&W AWAKE SfaM ACOS FII DISC2 --- WDADU DISC1 ToT

I got Yellow Matter Custard last week and love it. Any other opinions? Did anyone see the Zeppelin show?

What is it now with the rotted tree, isn't that wrong and should be rotten, or is that a Canadian form?

cheers

sab

--Boundary_(ID_JqMs+dUh3CsBj4Rgp/tLSQ) ---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:12:32 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Coutermarsh <andrew@acvox.com> To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: albums, Yellow Matter Message-ID: <20031126101011.L98569@samurai.ruin.org>

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Mike Shetzer wrote:

> What do you mean you "got" it? Wasn't it a live show? Or did they > release a disc of one of the shows... and what canadian rotten tree?

Yes, Radiant Records has released a 2-disc CD of the concert. I'm very much looking forward to it, but I just haven't bought it yet... The show was amazing, though.

------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh - http://www.acvox.com/ Email Address: andrew at acvox dot com ------------------------------------------------- There are 10 kinds of people in this world... Those who can read binary, and those who can't. -------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:06:39 -0500 From: "Rob P" <ytsejam2002@hotmail.com> To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: wankery Message-ID: <Law15-F343tmCVT9Bql0001e3fc@hotmail.com>

I don't. My definition of wankery stems from clowns like Yngwie, who I cannot stand. When solos become silly, I lose interest. I think the border line for JP's solos is the one on Erotomania. That one to me walks the wankery line very dangerously. I know alot of folks probably love it but I think it is borderline. I threw ToT in yet again last night and got pissed off in the middle of Honour Thy Father and hit eject. The line "Don't cross the crooked step" got me so friggin pissed off and I had enough. I put in something completely different. This CD isn't even in my top 20 for the year. A disc with 4 decent tracks just doesn't cut it for me. I am going to file it and try to let it go. I cannot force myself to like it I guess. [sigh]

>From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> >Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com >To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> >Subject: Re: wankery >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 20:38:02 -0800 (PST) > >--Boundary_(ID_OLIk3ojnktUKJP1kJcSwcQ) >Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >Well, agreed to some point. Threshold is cool. >What wankery if anyone do you like? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rob P > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:34 PM > Subject: Re: wankery > > > Well I see a huge difference in wankery (which is most of the solos on >ToT) > and virtuosity. The solos are fast for the sake of being fast, as in >showy. > It used to be that the solos were complex but melodic and were a part >of a > journey. Metropolis is a good example. Now its all cut and paste. >You'll > have a solid theme and then BANG, superfast soloing to show off. Seems >like > that is metal to Dream Theater. Not to me. I've listened more and more >to > ToT and the problems are just getting more obvious. I don't know of one > song that I can say I COMPLETELY like...let alone love. Very strange >album > for me. You want metal with some solid progressive playing...no > wankery...get anything by Threshold. To me, they set the standard. > > > >From: Mike Shetzer <echo26@videotron.ca> > >Reply-To: ytsejam@torchsong.com > >To: Multiple recipients of list <ytsejam@torchsong.com> > >Subject: wankery > >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:11:39 -0800 (PST) > > > >--Boundary_(ID_uNndtUsaU/jZQ/sPwON0RA) > >Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > > >After reading many posts on the opinions (both first and those after >many > >listens), it seems evident that ONE of the critiques is the display of >DT > >wankery on tracks, or of just plain insane fast solo-ing. I, like most >of > >you, love prog music, one of the reasons is that if I want to hear >wankery > >or insane musicianship, I don't have to look very far. Thusly, wankery >or > >virtuosity is always a plus when listening to a song. It's always > >entertaining to hear a cool track burst to insane instrumentalism and >then > >after 3 minutes of that bust back into the original groove of the song. > >What are your opinions on wankery? > > > >--Boundary_(ID_uNndtUsaU/jZQ/sPwON0RA) > >---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars >are > always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free! > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio > > >--Boundary_(ID_OLIk3ojnktUKJP1kJcSwcQ) >---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment

_________________________________________________________________ Groove on the latest from the hot new rock groups! Get downloads, videos, and more here. http://special.msn.com/entertainment/wiredformusic.armx

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:51:05 -0500 From: "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: definition of progressive Message-ID: <006001c3b44e$4053fa40$6a01a8c0@covad.net>

It's funny that a lot of those are actually stereotypes of people who listen to progressive. Granted, mainstream people think that Tool is the progressive in their diet (DEATH TO THEM!), but overall that's a pretty accurate assessment of, if nothing else, a guide to how to "appear" to be prog. Should one feel so inclined.

And interestingly enough, I actually wrote an essay not long ago, for some English class of some fashion, that focused on the dichotomy of progressive vs. regular metal (including pop-metal). Of course, most time when other people mention prog-rock, I tend to keep quiet - because it's always amusing to see what they know, or can come up with.

I mean, non-classical musicians never understand classical music entirely the way a classical musician does. Most people don't give a shit about contrapunctal development in Bach's Clavier or Fugue (or, for the extreme, Offering). They just like how it sounds. Same way, someone who's never tried playing lightning-fast solos over polyrhythms in weird keys for three minutes straight, will never understand the joy of that being well-done. A lot of people who enjoy prog rock do so from the perspective of the musicians writing and performing it, not from the perspective of an audience. Of course, prog musicians understand it even better in that respect. People who have good ear, grasp the tension/resolution-consonance/dissonance-voiceleading in weird chord changes/progressions, better than those who are pitch-deaf. And the general masses like prog bands because they appreciate the sound overall, not because they give a shit about any of the technical musical terms.

So to add to our discussion of prog, I think that in order to make prog music, one has to eliminate any trace of self-conscious super-ego, and wank away. Otherwise, it's only a semblance, and not true prog. The term progressive applies to the state of mind of the musician performing the piece, in its totality from beginning to end. Whatever that entails, is pro g... everything else at best highly questionable.

Ilia

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:30:32 -0500 From: "Ilia" <painlessscream@yahoo.com> To: <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: Re: wankery Message-ID: <006f01c3b453$c2f30ea0$6a01a8c0@covad.net>

I don't know about anybody else, but I always enjoyed well-done fast passages, including the purely fast ones, as well as those that use speed for contrast or building up a section.

My only complaint with the "wankery" on TOT was in regards to the composition itself. For example, I forget on which song (Dying Soul I believe), Rudess's solo has two really fast four-measure passages. First one starts and ends on the tonic (D or C# or whatever the whole album is in the same key), the second one starts on the tonic ends on the dominant. The notes in-between fade because they don't matter, since the beginning and end is so resolute. I mean seriously, that's a MUS101 assignment - write a melody that starts and ends on a tonic. Didn't Rudess graduate from Julie at the end of 15 or something?

As for Petrucci, while the same problem persists, he's added a whole lot more "fast for sake of fast" to his playing. In addition, the progressions over which he plays seem to have become simpler and more "pump"-style over the last few years. Contrast even the solo sections on TOT, to the same I-V-I Rudess solo - Petrucci's is not even over 4/4, it's more like 2/4. And it's not like his note placement is rhythmically intricate, either.

But I do like the solos for their overall effect, on TOT. I mean, I'm an instrumentalist (play both keyboards and guitar), and to me listening to technical stuff like that is breath-taking. Of course, that has nothing to do with aesthetics, but who cares about those anyway?

Anyway, just some thoughts on that subject.

Ilia

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 2003 00:43:16 -0000 From: "Marcelo Muzilli" <mmuzilli@ig.com.br> To: "Ytsejam" <ytsejam@torchsong.com> Subject: My info Message-ID: <1069893796.5870.101530.sendUpdate@mx.plaxo.com>

--_-------==1716966314 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_--=======2833088733"

--_--=======2833088733 charset="us-ascii"

Ytsejam,

Here is my latest contact info for your records. I'm using Plaxo Contacts to send this message and get my address book up-to-date. If you want to have my contact info automatically updated in your address book in the future or if you want to get your address book up-to-date, get Plaxo: http://www.plaxo.com/downloads.

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